16 yo without a clue

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My son, Joshua is 16 yo, graduated from high school with 12 college credits. He is brilliant. And he is a typical Aspie with a lack of the common sense skills that make Aspies, Aspies.

Because he is 16 he wants to have complete autonomy and no supervision, and no rules and responsibilities. He asks me all kinds of questions about why the world works the way it does and feels that my answers are not complete and do not answer his question. I am NT and he is not, so of course I answer questions incorrectly. But I do feel that his questions are valid and need to be answered. I almost feel like the right answer is the key to change his behavior. Then I reflect on what he asked me, and I feel manipulated to work so hard to answer his questions - so he doesn't have to. These are questions like: Why do I have to do the dishes every day? Why can't I read a book in the middle of school work? What is wrong with reading all day long or playing on the computer all day?

As parents, my husband and I cannot seem to motivate him to listen to us in order to learn the skills that he needs to eventually leave home - which he says he wants to do.

I finally told him that he convinced me that I am an ineffective parent and that because I love him, I want him to have effective parenting, so I am looking into a residential facility.

Thus far we have taken away all of his 1000 fantasy books, access to a computer, and television time. We have gotten him a volunteer job working with the disabled for therapeutic horseback riding, a friend (the only friend he has) who lives down the street with 4 horses, a volunteer job working with a civil organization, and a part-time job that has yet to be determined. As soon as he stops messing around and starts following our VERY BASIC rules, he will start to earn back his computer time, his TV time and eventually one or more books a week until he can no longer function at this VERY BASIC level. FYI, Joshua has access to probably the largest personal collection of books on just about every subject - just not fantasy books.

My husband and I have been told my various psychological professionals that Joshua needs more structure than we can provide if we want him to be a functional member of society.

Any advice, or words of experience would be very welcome.

--Ellen

Truth be told you need to tell him straight out that because of his AS he wants to do things his way in a negative way, and that although he doesn't perceive himself to be selfish - because of his AS he needs to know that he *is* selfish but not intentionally so and that, he is unintentionally immature and he has to manage to 'grow up'.

You can frame it in the way of reciprocal love, or loving himself (looking after himself), and not to mention you pay for a roof over his head and feed him, so him not helping shows he doesn't really care about you (stick it to him seriously). You sound like a real marshmellow kind of mom, you need to toughen up a bit otherwise he will continue to walk over you.

I know I was a lot like that, I was into myself without realizing that it looked very selfish to other people. If worse comes to worse (it probably wont) you can kick him out, the best thing is to do is force aspies to face reality, otherwise some of them would sit in their rooms all day playing computer games or doing whatever they want for years on end, having no responsibility.

Tell him, if he wants more freedom he needs a job (adult responsibility) and to pay you rent/food, etc, that is the only condition he can stay with you and/or have more freedom (he's paying his way). More importantly it would teach him to manage his money and finances. Free rides do not prepare anyone for the world.

It's not that you are an ineffective parent, it's that he does not want responsibility. No amount of parenting can change that, only forcing him to face the reality he will eventually face once you pass on. You have to stick to your guns because you are older and wiser then he is. Most parents try to be their kids "friends" and thats why their kids walk all over them.

I think taking away all his books is out of order. Sorry... but that's how I feel. Why would a child want to listen to a parent if the parent seems not to be listening to them? Or respect someone who is behaving disrespectfully?

He does need to learn, but have you considered finding some support, or other, less draconian mechanisms to help him learn? I know that if someone had taken away all my books at his age (or any age) I'd have closed myself off from talking to them, since I'd have felt like they'd taken a part of me.

I take it his behaviour hasn't improved since you removed his books... do you think he might be resentful?

Don't mean to come across too harsh... I should add, I'm a Mum of an aspie myself, and somewhere on the spectrum, so I can see it from both sides.

You need help to support him, and he needs to feel respected.

O dear, here we go again.

I see this all the time on this forums. You have fallen into a basic pitfall of parenting. You are treating him like a 2 year old, and expecting him to act like an adult. That doesnt work, if you want him to act like an adult you must treat him like an adult. Here is a previous post you may find interesting:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt97268.html

If you have some free time, I recommend you read it through to the end as the first few pages dont offer much good advice.

Long story short: You can't make your son become an effective member of society by force. If you twist his arm, and make him suffer until he does what you want that will only make him despise you and move out the first chance he gets, whether or not he can handle it. If you keep up with the strong arm tactics of taking away everything he loves and making him miserable until he complies then you have no right to be surprised when he no longer respects you because you clearly do not respect him. Respect is mutual, not something children are required to show their parents. If you want him to respect you and listen to you then you need to respect and listen to him. This isnt a one way deal here, you cant take away all his stuff, make him miserable, and then expect him to happily obey.

Instead you need to convince him to do things that need to be done (like the basic chores of life) because he understands the need and sees the use, not because you are forcing him. I mean what do you think will happen when he moves out and nobody is there to force him to do anything? If his only reason to take care of himself was because you made him then he will stop doing so once you are no longer around to make him. I have seen this happen before on several occasions with people in their late teens/early 20s. People live with crazy parents who harass and make them miserable. So they get a part time job, move out of their parents house, get a dirt cheep apartment with a friend in a similar situation. The place never gets cleaned, or organized, and they just use paper plates rather then clean anything. They wind up living in squalor and get stuck in a part time job at the movie theater with no chance of career advancement. Your harassment of your son doesnt make him WANT to do the things your forcing on him, it only makes him want to move out.

The fact that he is asking these questions shows that he is at least open to the idea of learning, so go ahead and teach him. Also, get him an account here at Wrong Planet. He is more then welcome here, and we may be able to answer some of his questions in a way which he can understand. And failing that, feel free to post his questions on this board and we will answer them for you. If you want, I can also meet your son online over AIM or something and answer his questions directly. I am living and working independently as an aspie, so I probably have a good answer for most of his questions.

I am tending toward the above sentiments, but first I would like to know what exactly has happened, so I can understand your reaction. When you are not reacting what else are you doing?

Question wise, I would recommend answers that are detailed and specific. Not too wishy-washy and inconsistent (try and remember previous related answers to avoid contradiction).

Your answers about life could be incorrect because you have inherent understanding, which isn't the same as conscious understanding. This is still being studied. Humans don't understand humans fully, especially not on a conscious level.

Most parents are crap and that is not an insult. That fact that you said you aren't able, shows that you a basically giving up.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 27 May 2009, 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

You know this how?

Keep in mind you you're also bound by the sort of conventional thinking that makes NTs NTs. You also sound like you're a fan of go-along-to-get-along, and that's a hard principle to defend when faced with someone who doesn't value group harmony (and might even dispute that such a thing is possible).

Doesn't everyone want that? Always?

How do you answer those questions? Why can't he read a book in the middle of school work? Clearly you think he can't, but why is that? He's asking you why you hold a given opinion. Surely you must know.

The trouble is, you might not. NTs are often insufficiently introspective from an Aspie's point of view. An Aspie will often know exactly why he hold any opinion he holds, and will be able to tell you if you ask him. But I don't think you're asking him.

What is wrong with playing on the computer all day long? I've been known to do that, sometimes for several days at a time. If you're trying to tell him that his behaviour is unacceptable based solely on its merits, you'll never get anywhere because he doesn't accept your basic assumptions (of which you might not even be aware). Talk to him about consequences. Why can't he read a book in the middle of school work? Explain how punishment works.

You can't treat him like an adult because you don't know how to deal with adults who aren't relevantly similar to you. Try treating him like a computer. He'll draw perfectly logical conclusions based on the information you give him, but he's not going to draw baseless inferences or blindly accept social norms.

I think what you've done here is appalling. It's like you've locked him in a sensory deprivation chamber.

You don't see it that way, because you think what you have him doing instead is more rewarding and more stimulating. But his brain doesn't work like your brain does, so how he perceives the world around him is fundamentally different.

You want him to pay attention to school work? Have him study something that interests him. When I discovered Epistemology I locked into it and haven't let go for 10 years. Epistemology spoke to me because it deals with what constitutes knowledge, and that's largely what separates me from NTs. NTs claim to know a lot of things about the world without really understanding how (or even if) they actually know those things. This could well be the gulf between you and your son (you think the answers to his questions are obvious to everyone, while he doubts that you have even the answers you think you do).

Last edited by Sylvius on 27 May 2009, 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I guess I need to give more background so people understand where I am coming from:

Joshua and I never bonded. He wanted nothing to do with me since birth. However, please do not construe this to mean that I am a "mean and horrible mother". I have wanted to be a mother my whole life. I have thought about how to help children grow up to be adults from the time I knew that girls could have babies. My mother was a terrible mother and I knew that I could do better.

I am not a mean and harsh mother. The truth is that I have really been kind and supportive of Joshua throughout his life. I knew that whether he loved me was optional and that I needed to love him and model what a loving relationship was like. Joshua just never wanted to be part of the family.

I have accepted that Joshua has Asperger's Syndrome. He is very bright and has hacked into the computer and television (satellite) and can read practically like looking at the page and understanding it.

I know that I am being very harsh right now. That fact alone leaves me feeling very uneasy. I am generally an ultra laizze-faire kinda person.

Joshua was in a complete fog until he was about 13 yo when I put him on Prozac and off Gluten. That was when I finally met my son. Up until that time, I let Joshua do just about anything that he wanted to do. Who am I to decide what a kids interests are?

More recently, as he went through puberty he has become much more talkative (if you could call it that) and also very angry. That was when we put his on Risperadal.

Recently he went off the Risperadal (because he forgot to tell me that he needed more) and that is when we started the onset of a whole host of problems. Joshua became aggressive and obstinate. He refused to do anything outside himself.

Finally seeing our son dive into his own body, we started to try to save him from never-never-land. That is why we took away his books, computer, and eventually even the television.

The types of things we are asking of him are simple and basic.

*Wake up
*Shower, brush teeth, get dressed
*Eat Breakfast; take meds
*Do activities (whatever is in store for that day - usually not much)
*Eat Lunch
*Do activities (whatever is in store for that day - usually not much)
*Eat Dinner
*Do Dishes
*Take shower, brush teeth, take nighttime meds
*Go to sleep before midnight

Joshua has not been able to do these things to a 50% accuracy! I mean we are asking only the minimal from him.

As soon as Joshua does this three days in a row with 80% accuracy, then he can walk around the block and have an hour of computer time. After several days of this, should he be able to maintain, then we will allow him to have one (and then an increasing number) of books as long as he maintains his ability to complete the minimal standards enumerated above.

If I can't get my son to wake up and take care of his basic needs, then apparently I am a ineffective mother and he needs to go somewhere else where the environment is more conducive to him being successful with these basic life skills.

I am also asking him to get out of himself and into the world, because I think that the world has a great deal to offer.

As an adult, Joshua will be self-determining. There is no question about that. I just want to make sure that I (or someone else) introduces him to the things that NTs do in life. What he ultimately does is his business. But wouldn't I be neglectful if I did not try to get my son out of his room (head). That is what most people said for the mom of a 17 yo who didn't want to leave his room

Anyways, I have also been told that I am one of the best explainers of minutia that most people know. So when I say that I cannot explain things to Joshua, I mean it. I don't speak Asperger's Syndrome, and apparently I get an "F" in that department. That said, there is an element of manipulation that is going on here too. Apparently I cannot tell the difference and therefore I might not be the best person to raise this 16 yo into manhood.

That is why I asked this forum what they thought about residential centers and any advice from those with Asperger's Syndrome what helped them the most. The last thing in the world I want to be is a hard-nose - or a push-over. I just want to help Joshua find balance and not come apart in the process.

It sounds like your son is depressed / angry and fearful of the world, when you say he can't manage to do simple things, clearly he's obsessed with his interests as a form of escape and catharsis from the world itself. I mean the things you mention sound like he is stewing in his own unhappyness about the world itself, I take it you know he's unhappy?

You are not a bad parent, remember he is developmentally not all there yet, in 10 or so years he will see himself in a new light. I tell you this from my own experience. If he continues to live with you, he must get a real job. You can be there for him and allow him to do whatever he wants but he *must* get a real job and be forced to deal with the real world at some point.

People who say you are horrible have no idea what length an AS person will go to manipulate their parents to get what they want out of them to create their own environment. To me it sounds like he is using you whether he realizes it or not

To Sylvius:

He has to do the dishes each day because of hygienic reasons and because we have given him this as his one chore. He can't read in the middle of the doing school because he gets lost in time and soon 4 hours have gone by. Then when he gets back to his work he is too tired and does not do the best school work. It is not my rule, it is his behavior that I am reflecting back to him. The problem with reading or playing on the computer all day long is that it does not promote a value to oneself or society in general. Although certainly there are days when we do just that, if individually we all just read books or played on the computer, there would be no one to write books or fix ISPs when they went down. Society is a fusion of everyone doing the things that are gifts to them and offering it to the world as their contribution to society - to the people who write books, fix ISPs, write computer games, set up web sites, grow our food, etc.




He is hardly in a deprivation chamber. We live in the middle of the woods with all types of wildlife all around us. He has more reading material than most people. And all we are asking him is for three (3) days of self-care. I hardly think that taking away distracting materials for three days is going to kill him, just give him a chance to look outside himself for something else besides fantasy.



Joshua is now out of high school and has taken 4 college classes in things that interest him. I do not pick his classes - he does. FYI his older brother who is a little Aspie himself, also is very interested in Epistemology and is currently in a school where that is all they study. This coming school year Joshua is taking two music classes, theater, world history, and a science class. All classes he picked. As far as I am concerned Joshua can go to school and explore his interests for years and years. He is only 16. If he finds an interest that can lead to a self-supporting job - cool. I am hardly holding this kiddo back. I want to open the doors and get his head out of fantasy books and computer games long enough for him to find his passion. And if his passion is indeed fantasy books, then I would be happy if he were an editor for a publisher of fantasy books. Hell, I would even be happy if he were a game designer or a beta game tester. I have no preconceived ideas on what Joshua should be. I just know that he will never find it if he doesn't stop rereading the same books.


Sylvius,

It seems as though you have jumped on my frustrations out of defending your own life. Frankly, I think it is wonderful that you have found Epistemology as a passion. As my older son, we NEED people like you! You are the keepers of the past. It is from you and other Epistemologists that we can learn so much. My point is that I am sure you did not become interested in Epistemology by reading fantasy books all day or playing RPGs all day. You had too look outside yourself and begin to explore what might be interesting to you. I don't know how old you are. Since you said that you have been studying Epistemology for 10 years, you must be at least in your twenties . . . or perhaps you started when you were much younger - who knows. All I am sure of is that you had to push yourself out of your childhood passion and find a new, more mature, inquisitive passion.

That is all I want for Joshua. Where his roads lead is between him and his higher power - not me!

Taking away his interests is a horrid thing to do. I realise that it doesn't seem like that to you, an NT, but to him, AS, it is torture.

My mother tried similar tactics with me a few months ago, because I was scared to go to school. She only let me on the computer for an hour each day (nowhere near enough), took away my TV and DVDs and books, and justified it with a bunch of stupid illogical vague arguments. All she acheived is making me hate her with every fibre of my being. All she left for me to DO was to sit there hating her. With everything relating to my interests locked in the loft (except a few books and my diaries, which I had hidden under the bed), I spent my days basically just thinking about suicide.

Anyway, back to your situation...

His questions are not stupid. What IS wrong with spending his time doing things that interest him? Answer his questions, and answer them good. Never say things like "because I say so" and "that's life". Those are some of the worst phrases ever.

Respect is a two-way street, remember. Parents shouldn't just demand respect while giving none in return.

/from AS teenager's perspective.

Your son has fantastic abilities, why not let him make the most of them? I think it is shooting yourself in the foot taking away the positive things. The fact is it is an advantage, and can compensate for a lot.

It is not that uncommon not to get on with or be indifferent to family, even for NTs. My parents are quite neurotic. I prefer them in small doses. Try not to let it interfere.

Also why all at once, what is to loose with just trying one thing at a time? What is the relevance to each of your requirement to his betterment? He might not need all of them anyway.

Where is the positive reinforcement? I don't mean the chips you have taken from him, those are tainted.

I think we should be careful here not to lecture the OP too much... she was honest describing the problem she had, and though I think she's made a mistake, it does sound like she's at the end of her rope.

I think you really need some support from the public sector, an advisor or counsellor to help you out. I'm not going to be on much the next few days, but I'll ask around some other Mums, and find out if anyone has some more practical advise for you and your son.

Oh, by the way. Your son probably does love you... he just doesn't show it. Don't be sad about his lack of effect. It's not a reflection on you, or him.

Hang on in there...

I don't know what to tell you, but i have had OPERANT CONDITIONING done to me before. There are many types

there is a positive reinforcement=putting something in your son's environment that he does like so he can do the action you want

negative reinforcement=takibng something out of your son's environment that he wants out, and that way you can get him to do the action you want

punishment=puting something in that your son doesnt like or taking something out that he does like.

I am 17. I am in the IB program and I have over a 4.1 GPA. What i just explained was operant conditioning by B.F. Skinner. What you did to your son was punishment. I'm not a parent so i dont know what to do. When I was 11 years old my mother took away all my stuffed animals because I wasnt socializing well. I didnt wanna socialize at all. My behavior improved alittle bit, but not much because i was mad at her.

i also ask my mom and everyone else in the house many questions such as

-why are people so mean?
-why don't girls like me and why do they go with jerks?
-why am i so weird to everybody else?
-why are people racist towards black people?
-why is the world so mean?

I dont understand the world. I'm a kind person, but sometimes if im pushed a little too hard then I can blow up.
To tell the truth i dont like people, i dont like anyone, I stay to myslf or around cool people because i either get teased, get racist black jokes told to me, bullied, or im just not interested in what other kids are interested in.

I dont like the world and i understand your son's pain. if you want to know why he asks those questions I'll be glad to answer

I am so incredibly aware that I am not meeting his needs. That is what I have been writing about. And that is why I have attempted asking those who have Asperger's to help me.

Gosh, I am really sorry that your Mom did not respect you and forced you to do things that you didn't want to do. How incredibly horrible. I can assure you that I don't think that Joshua's questions are stupid. They might be manipulative, but they are not stupid. And they deserve answers. It is me who is not able to answer them to his liking - although I do keep trying. In fact, I have told Joshua that I just want to call a truce to his questions because it only frustrates him that I cannot answer them and it also frustrates me that I can't help my son with his questions.

Today his therapist suggested that he keep a notebook of his questions and then he (since he is technically savvy and likes research) can look up the answers to his hearts' content. Joshua liked that answer. And I was pleased that he liked it too. Again, I want him to have the answers, I just don't have them in the format that he needs.

I did also want to assure you that I would NEVER - EVER say "because I said so", or "that's life". Those are pithy replies used to stop conversation. Now that Joshua is talking, the LAST thing I want to do is to stop the flow of conversation!! !

Finally, I have always treated my children as though they were guests in my home. They were guests that were held as prisoners because they had no way to leave. Because of that, they have grown up to be very mature people, especially Joshua's older brother. Joshua is having more trouble because of the Asperger's.

Taking away his books was as abhorrent to me as it was to you. It was done at the end of an extremely long rope that ultimately was attached to the real world, rather than the world of fantasy. It made me cry. But it was also the thing that the whole mental health community (six psychologists, two psychiatrists, and one neurological psychologist) told me was the only way. As I came to the end of all my own ideas, and that of my husbands, I went online to a listserv (Mothers with Asperger Syndrome Kids) and asked them. It was only with great unanimity and a deep consciousness searching that I finally did the penultimate thing - take away his books.

OMG, I finally got a reaction! A REACTION! Wow! That was something that nothing else, no matter how much rhetoric I engaged in, no matter how much I worked with him, no matter how much I offered positive rewards - nothing made him look up. BUT HIS BOOKS - HAH - he noticed! Did he notice in a good way - no! He felt both suicidal and homicidal. And I sat/walked with him for hours calming him down. THIS WAS THE WORST THING THAT I COULD HAVE EVER DONE - something that I did not want to do for more than 5 years of prodding by the psychological community. He cried. I cried. It was hell.

Jemir - I want to get back to you, but you left a long post and I need to attend to life - dinner, peeing, etc.

Please everyone - I know taking away the books was horrid. It felt horrid to me. But I did get my son to pay attention and want to work with me. That was a good thing. The ends do not justify the means... the means went against every value I hold. But it is done. It is not "permanently done", but they are put away where he cannot find them and he is paying attention. The worst is over for him and for me - he said so. Now we are trying to help him cope with life in a systematic way in order for him to get what he wants. I will read Jemir's post and get back to everyone.

Again, I am sorry to have offended those of you who really identify with Joshua. I promise it was done after all other options were used to alter Joshua's awareness and failed. I apologize.

I'll be back.

okay