How we deal with racism and hate speech on Wrong Planet

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Teach51
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25 Aug 2020, 5:13 am

I better say no more on the subject. Charlie Chaplin says it best:

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Last edited by Teach51 on 25 Aug 2020, 5:24 am, edited 6 times in total.

envirozentinel
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25 Aug 2020, 5:14 am

Eeeeeeeek!! !

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alex
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25 Aug 2020, 5:14 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

alex wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

alex wrote:

magz wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

Yes, but perhaps "I think you are racist" is better than "you are a racist" in the event that there has been a misunderstanding LG?

And "what you just said is racist" would be even better.

Right but I don’t think we can police people on the best way to say things especially when it comes to racism. Especially when the victim of the racism is already having to deal with the racism and now they’re going to also be told they’re not addressing it in an ideal way?

I disagree totally here Alex. Being falsely accused and misinterpreted is no lesser sin. Here lies your error imo.

The issue here is that you can’t really be falsely accused. If someone believes something you say is racist, they’re calling you racist based on their definition of racist not your definition. And either way you’re being accused of doing something racist (which means you’re racist) or being racist. The accusation is basically the same.

But then people can deliberately interpret a member's post in the most uncharitable way possible and disingenuously call that member a racist to character-assassinate them while the accused lacks the ability to enact any recourse.

I was considering this but now I’ve been personally accused in this thread and I honestly don’t feel like it holds any weight as it’s clearly unfounded. So after witnessing it firsthand, I feel like that’s not much of an issue.

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magz
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25 Aug 2020, 5:15 am

A few months ago, we had a massive defamation campaign, based basically on "we know that person is evil because whatever they do or doesn't do, we know there is always evil intent underneath. Anything they do or doesn't do proves they is evil so it's okay to attack that person on every occasion."

Alex, you may be taking it light heartedly but it's serious. False accusations and defamation campaigns are a real problem that we need to prevent, not give them a fool-proof always-acceptable-for-mods tool.

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alex
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25 Aug 2020, 5:22 am

magz wrote:

If that becomes a problem we’ll deal with it.

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Wolfram87
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25 Aug 2020, 5:24 am

alex wrote:

I was considering this but now I’ve been personally accused in this thread and I honestly don’t feel like it holds any weight as it’s clearly unfounded.

also alex wrote:

The issue here is that you can’t really be falsely accused.

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envirozentinel
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25 Aug 2020, 5:27 am

We don't generally think the same way NTs do. I still occasionally battle to tell the difference between a joke and something seriously meant. This difficulty in communication causes some members to feel scapegoated or threatened in some way, and a small misunderstanding develops into an Interplanetary Apocalypse.

In the same way, we can't always divine intention behind something. Obviously unfounded accusations are not acceptable if intended seriously and i get the impression they were made to show some hypothetical point.

Maybe we don't need mods here but a powerful holy guru who can read minds!

Modding (currently only 3 active ones) fell behind a little during June (speaking for myself I was extremely busy and had four family birthdays among other things) and so instead of being dealt with asap within 24 hours (the ideal scenario) things got a bit out of hand.

choosing kindness and a well thought response is what we need, as we want to be a community here, not a "house divided".

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The Grand Inquisitor
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25 Aug 2020, 5:30 am

alex wrote:

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

alex wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

alex wrote:

magz wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

Yes, but perhaps "I think you are racist" is better than "you are a racist" in the event that there has been a misunderstanding LG?

And "what you just said is racist" would be even better.

I disagree totally here Alex. Being falsely accused and misinterpreted is no lesser sin. Here lies your error imo.

Yeah, in this case it's clearly unfounded, but it's quite possible that in another instance, somebody's post could be taken out of context or their words could be twisted to make the accusation more plausible.

magz
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25 Aug 2020, 5:33 am

alex wrote:

If that becomes a problem we’ll deal with it.

So how are you dealing with the "Sly is a racist and white supremacist because he fears BLM protests can lead to chaos" campaign? Because that's where it originally started.

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Sahn
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25 Aug 2020, 5:38 am

Teach51 wrote:

It is all about intent and not condemning someone for misusing semantics when they are autistic

Isn't that loophole totally at odds with the purpose of this thread, ie clarifying the rules to autistic people / people with autism / Aspies / autists / whatever

Pepe
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25 Aug 2020, 5:41 am

Quote:

Members of the Northwestern Band of the Shoshone and others, numbering in the hundreds, have gathered here in the Cache Valley to drum and to grieve. They are here to mark the anniversary of a tragic event, considered by some to be the largest massacre of Native Americans in the history of the American West.
Mourners have left remembrances at a prayer tree at a pull out along highway 91 nearby the site of the Bear Massacre in the Cache Valley, just outside Preston, Idaho.
Credit Daysha Eaton / KUER

On January 29, 1863, the U.S. Army killed most of the Northwestern Band of the Shoshone at a place called Bear River.

I propose we ban the 1863 American flag, also.

Drake
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25 Aug 2020, 5:48 am

I disagree in the strongest possible terms with the new guidelines. Others have already made the pertinent arguments, in some cases better than I could.

To lose ASPartOfMe would be a tragedy for this site. He's my favourite person here, and a big part of the reason I stay thanks to his content and insight.

I am very upset right now. You don't know how much you appreciate someone until they're gone, he's not gone yet, but now that I'm confronted with the issue I realise I appreciate him considerably more than I thought. And it also is bringing back memories from another forum where my favourite person was alienated away.

Pepe
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25 Aug 2020, 5:51 am

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

alex wrote:

The Grand Inquisitor wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I beg of you to reconsider the policy of allowing members to describe other members as racist. Being allowed to say “that is a racist statement” makes it non personal so can is not a personal attack although many will perceive it that way.

I agree with this.

Like you said, Alex, people can exhibit racist behaviour without even realising it. In such an instance, it would appear to me that allowing people to label an unwitting offender as a racist would be more likely to be perceived as a personal attack, and inflame or alienate that individual than to get them to see the error of their ways.

Conversely, I think calling out specific instances of racism instead of labelling an unwitting offender as a racist is more likely to get through to that individual and cause them to reflect on their conduct.

I agree it’s probably way more effective to say that’s racist instead of you’re racist but to outright ban saying you’re racist means someone could say something racist, a Black person could point it out in the “wrong way” and they’d end up getting in trouble. I don’t think that’s right at all.

I don't know that calling someone a racist when they've exhibited racist behaviour should be a punishable offence, though I think people should generally be discouraged from calling individuals racist in favour of calling out posts and actions for being racist.

In the past, people have called out racism where none existed.

Pepe
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25 Aug 2020, 5:55 am

Teach51 wrote:

magz wrote:

alex wrote:

I don't think this scenario is limited to racism. All the time, we have to deal with people triggered by what others posted and reacting "the wrong way". Often, it stems from miscommunication, not any ill intention.
In such situations, I think the point is not "who should get in trouble" but "how can we help people reconsider what they say".

This is the essence of the problem, it is all in the wording. Calling someone a racist who is not a racist is just as damaging as making a racist comment. This was the meaning of the analogy that Sly used that some people twisted and used against him.

In the past, people have called out racism where none existed.

EEP! Déjà vu

Pepe
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25 Aug 2020, 5:58 am

League_Girl wrote:

I mean that when I pointed out about how racism exists in society and how it's not an attack to point out racism to people. I even mentioned white privilege and yes people disagreed about white people being racist.

While we are at it, I propose that genetically blessed people should be vilified.

Teach51
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25 Aug 2020, 6:08 am

domineekee wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

It is all about intent and not condemning someone for misusing semantics when they are autistic

Isn't that loophole totally at odds with the purpose of this thread, ie clarifying the rules to autistic people / people with autism / Aspies / autists / whatever

Yes, thank you for reminding me dom. Rules are important when interpretation is questionable.

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