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In Islam, are suicide bombings justified?

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techstepgenr8tion
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14 Nov 2015, 8:33 am

naturalplastic wrote:
And that number makes sense. The lucky number seven has LONG tradition that all of the Abrahmic religions inherited from pagan Mesopotamia. And 49 is seven times seven.

Being they had the seven 'luminaries' or Elohim to work with I understand the seven and perhaps giving it one multiplication had a particular effect they liked. To work on that assumption however it's interesting perhaps that there's a tradition in the OT of relating 50 as 49+1, such as having the jubilee year, but no tradition for 343 (7^3) that I'm aware of. That's where things like this start getting a bit less obvious. I know that the Theosophists were big on their seven rays but that's the only other context for seven that I can think of, I doubt it had anything to do with what they were doing but it might perhaps lend a hypothesis that 7*7 was for the planets on one hand and the forces working through the planets on the other.


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14 Nov 2015, 8:36 am

The number 42 is another interesting one. In the Egyptian tradition Maat's 42 assessors typically questioned the dead on their virtue; apparently Yahweh's 42 assessors were aggressive enough to even make the appointment!


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14 Nov 2015, 8:52 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
And that number makes sense. The lucky number seven has LONG tradition that all of the Abrahmic religions inherited from pagan Mesopotamia. And 49 is seven times seven.

Being they had the seven 'luminaries' or Elohim to work with I understand the seven and perhaps giving it one multiplication had a particular effect they liked. To work on that assumption however it's interesting perhaps that there's a tradition in the OT of relating 50 as 49+1, such as having the jubilee year, but no tradition for 343 (7^3) that I'm aware of. That's where things like this start getting a bit less obvious. I know that the Theosophists were big on their seven rays but that's the only other context for seven that I can think of, I doubt it had anything to do with what they were doing but it might perhaps lend a hypothesis that 7*7 was for the planets on one hand and the forces working through the planets on the other.


Seven is all over the place.

There are seven phases of the moon (even paleolithic man seems to have recognized that). Six if you dont count when the moon is invisible as a "phase", and seven if you do. That universal stone age observation about the moon seems to be the source of the tradition. The Babylonians had a secular system of counting based on six (not exactly base-six, but they counted in sixes). And they had a sacred system based on seven. The first iteration of six is 12, that of seven is 14. Thirteen is out of step with both systems so 13 became the unlucky number.

Jesus asked how "how many times do you forgive someone? Seven times? No. Seven times seven times seven..".

And Muslims seek to go to "seventh heaven".

The opening of verses of the book of Matthew in the NT talks about past prophecy that involves historic periods of "seven generations".



Last edited by naturalplastic on 14 Nov 2015, 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Nov 2015, 9:00 am

sophisticated wrote:
i'm well aware the Koran and many ahadith talk about reward for martyrs , which is ofcourse not the same as a someone that commits suicide.


No it says the companions are a reward for believers not just martyrs.



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14 Nov 2015, 9:06 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
What I find interesting is why some many interpretations describe them as transparent to the marrow of their bones, as if this is somehow sexy. Also hairless except on their hair and eyebrows.

If you see beings interpreted as translucent, or giant and translucent, it seems like a literary device - probably more of a giveaway than anything that they aren't talking about something skin and bone.


This is not really credible sorry. They are elaborating on human like anatomy mentions in the Quran, then adding traits they find virtuous and pure. I think implying this supposed symbolism is intellectually dishonest. The people who wrote these Hadith are very literal in their work. They don't come from tradition with literary symbolism. In fact many would consider such interpretations an affront to the faith.



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14 Nov 2015, 9:51 am

0_equals_true wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
i'm well aware the Koran and many ahadith talk about reward for martyrs , which is ofcourse not the same as a someone that commits suicide.


No


????????



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14 Nov 2015, 11:06 am

Companions are a reward for believers not martyrs.



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14 Nov 2015, 11:33 am

0_equals_true wrote:
Companions are a reward for believers not martyrs.


what companions ?



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14 Nov 2015, 11:43 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't think most of these people believe they will be made love to by 72 virgins.

I feel most of these people feel alienated by the world around them, and want to end it all.

These people need a reason to live.


This, and...

There are always people who want to violently assert the primacy of their own point of view.

Always. In every race, every religion, every nationality, every [insert demographic here].

There are even pacifists who will use, if not violence by their own hand, then the force of the law to jam their POV down everyone else's throat.

I've known Pagans and Christians who would be more than happy to take up the same tactics (and will, if they feel cornered enough and can find enough angry and disenfranchised young people to provide the muscle to the movement).

No demographic is immune, and any dogma can be twisted to give credence.


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14 Nov 2015, 11:56 am

sophisticated wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Companions are a reward for believers not martyrs.


what companions ?

I have just given you a bunch of sources, what more do you want?



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14 Nov 2015, 12:20 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Companions are a reward for believers not martyrs.


what companions ?

I have just given you a bunch of sources, what more do you want?


Okay I think I understand you now.

Yeah every believer gets "houris" in heaven, but martyrs get more. There's a whole range of virtues for martyrs, not just "houris". It's "houris" that gets the attention of the media and boards like these.

Suicide bombers die for nothing because they weren't killed for practising their faith, they rather killed themselves. Killing oneself is one the gravest of sins in the sight of the Islamic God.

Honestly, those ISIS / Alqaeda people are total lunatics and are doing things contrary to the faith they claim to follow.



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14 Nov 2015, 12:53 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
What I find interesting is why some many interpretations describe them as transparent to the marrow of their bones, as if this is somehow sexy. Also hairless except on their hair and eyebrows.

If you see beings interpreted as translucent, or giant and translucent, it seems like a literary device - probably more of a giveaway than anything that they aren't talking about something skin and bone.


This is not really credible sorry. They are elaborating on human like anatomy mentions in the Quran, then adding traits they find virtuous and pure. I think implying this supposed symbolism is intellectually dishonest. The people who wrote these Hadith are very literal in their work. They don't come from tradition with literary symbolism. In fact many would consider such interpretations an affront to the faith.


It's not all literal in Islamic literature. Metaphors and figures of speech are widely used.

Ill give an example.

In Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 11:

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 662:
Muhammad says: “Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief.”


The word raisin in this sentence is a metaphor. The context tells you that.



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14 Nov 2015, 12:59 pm

Interesting metaphor.

Does "like a raisin" mean "old and wrinkled"?

Or does it mean "dark" (ie racial)? Ethiopians generally are darker than Arabs on the Arabian peninsula.

Of course green grapes turn into yellow raisins. Which are light colored.



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14 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Interesting metaphor.

Does "like a raisin" mean "old and wrinkled".

Or does it mean "dark" (ie racial)? Ethiopians generally are darker than Arabs on the Arabian peninsula.

Of course green grapes turn into yellow raisins. Which are light colored.


Maybe means old and wrinkled .. I don't really know.

But definitely doesn't mean "Ethiopian with a raisin as his head".



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14 Nov 2015, 1:47 pm

sophisticated wrote:
It's not all literal in Islamic literature. Metaphors and figures of speech are widely used.

Ill give an example.

In Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 11:

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 662:
Muhammad says: “Listen and obey (your chief) even if an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin were made your chief.”

Sorry to nitpick but that is a simile. The word "like" is a clue that a comparison is being made.

Also there is a differnce between a metaphor and symbolism.

It is quite clear that the hadith doesn't interpret what is says about Houri as symbolic or metaphorical. They are clearly describing these supernatural trait in an anthropomorphic manner.

First of all if it was metaphorical what evidence is there of this? There is no direct evidence they though this or that the Quran intends this.

There is no point in simply saying there is some coincidental numerology or whatever, as this is never nearly as profound as people make out there is evidence of such a metaphor or symbolism coming form a direct source.

You also have to wonder why you are being told this. What value does it hold? The only common interpretation you could make is it is trying to describe Paradise, based on what would be considered desirable and "beautiful". So in some sense it is appealing to earthly desires to do that.



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14 Nov 2015, 1:49 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
This is not really credible sorry. They are elaborating on human like anatomy mentions in the Quran, then adding traits they find virtuous and pure. I think implying this supposed symbolism is intellectually dishonest. The people who wrote these Hadith are very literal in their work. They don't come from tradition with literary symbolism. In fact many would consider such interpretations an affront to the faith.


I think you're missing the quantity of hard opposites and hypocrisy that synchretism in the classical world accommodated, see early Judaism killing people for being star worshippers - as a religion built on star worship.

If the early Islamic thinkers and writers of the Quran were as set on literal thinking as you'd suggest It's more likely that the very idea of the 72 virgins and their description is something that Islam imported from an older and more figurative local tradition without having any idea what it meant. Otherwise, to read it blunt literal, it sounds like the offering is 72 angels to have sex with. That doesn't sound like a suggestion that would go over well in any line of Abrahamic tradition, particularly with any reference to the Enoch narratives.


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