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Russian army has invaded the Crimea

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Kraichgauer
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06 Mar 2014, 1:24 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Russia's reasoning for going to war makes more sense than most of our wars have. I couldn't help but to chuckle when John Kerry said that Putin/Russia were acting like it was the 19th century and that you can't invade another country in the 21st century on a trumped up a pre-text. :lol:

The people of the Crimea have the same right as self-determination as anyone else. You have to assume that the CIA amongst others probably have their fingers all over this coup in Ukraine they've basically admitted as much in leaked phone calls. The snipers Yanukovych supposedly used against protestors appear to have to been hired by the opposition as to serve as provocateurs, the whole thing is a sham. The media is cancer, they've been pumping us full of anti-Russian propaganda for months now.


American conservatives have the recurring nightmare that the Latino populace in the southwest will want to rejoin Mexico if they are allowed to become the majority. Say if that impossible scenario were to happen, would America honestly let it just because Latino southwesterners wanted to practice self determination?
And to blame the media for the ethnic unrest in Ukraine is simplistic and naive. The tension between Russians and Ukrainians has been going on for a very long time, and hardly needed the media to stir the fires.


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06 Mar 2014, 1:29 pm

Schneekugel wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The people of the Crimea have the same right as self-determination as anyone else. You have to assume that the CIA amongst others probably have their fingers all over this coup in Ukraine they've basically admitted as much in leaked phone calls. The snipers Yanukovych supposedly used against protestors appear to have to been hired by the opposition as to serve as provocateurs, the whole thing is a sham. The media is cancer, they've been pumping us full of anti-Russian propaganda for months now.


The thing is, by doing as they actually do (invading foreign countries to "protect" russian minorities in them), Russia is actually favoring, that ethnic cleansing will be happening again in the future.

Before second worldwar, that "protection" of minorities, was as well used as excuse to engage into foreign countries politics. In the end it leaded to countries simply ending any risc of that happening again, by pushing that minorities out.

Armenian minorities could become a threat again for the turkian country? - Lets wipe them out, no problem with that ever again.

German minorities could become a threat again for Czechian and polish country? - Lets wipe them out, no problem with that ever again.

By engaging into that kind of behavior again (using minorities as reason to engage in military ways), you create as well reasons again for people to wipe out such minority populations. As well that it creates resistance in people, to allow foreign people to settle down. Certain areas of Berlin are as well dominated by turkian people. Does that mean, that turkian military has the right to engage there, anyway if the majority of the affected citizens of that area want it or not? O_o


That was the fate of my Black Sea German relatives under Stalin. They had been ethnically cleansed in the Crimea and the adjacent areas, and deported to Siberia and Kazakhstan, along with the Crimean Tatars. And surprise, surprise, Stalin replaced them with the grandparents of the Russians living in the Crimea today.


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06 Mar 2014, 1:33 pm

But at the same time we don't want the balance of power to spring back and totally annihilate the ethnic Ukrainians. The scene is being set for war crimes. Will we sit back and let it happen is the question.



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06 Mar 2014, 1:39 pm

The Crimea was given to Ukraine from Russia in 1954 by Nikita Khrushchev who was Ukrainian himself who I am sure never imagined the unbreakable USSR would indeed do just that. I think the people of the Crimea should have the same right to self-determination as those in Kiev, if they want to join Russia then what argument can anyone have against that? I can't see how you can support the popular will behind certain revolutions but then decry about territorial integrity and the legality of the process about other ones unless you have your own agenda which the American media and government obviously do. The snipers in the Maidan were actually hired by the protest leaders, that should tell you quite a bit about the people that are in control in now.



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06 Mar 2014, 1:52 pm

But will Putin stop with the Crimea? Defending the Russian populace there is nothing more than just a pretext to grabbing up territory in order to rebuild the Russian empire. After all, Putin has said Ukraine isn't a real country, but just a province of Russia.


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06 Mar 2014, 1:58 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
But will Putin stop with the Crimea? Defending the Russian populace there is nothing more than just a pretext to grabbing up territory in order to rebuild the Russian empire. After all, Putin has said Ukraine isn't a real country, but just a province of Russia.

No, it's much more complicated. The guy who was ousted by these rebels, President Viktor Yanukovych, voted against a step that would bring Ukraine closer to joining the EU in favor of the Russian trade unions. This upset the western Ukrainians and it is rumored their paramilitary trained in the EU. Basically, the EU is trying to dismantle the country and take away it's financial power.
President Viktor Yanukovych fled to Russia and the EU has just had his assets frozen, most likely in an attempt to keep the conflict from becoming bloodier. To freeze an ousted leader's assets is strange when your consider he was illegally removed from power according to his country's constitution.
The entire nation is heavily dependent upon Russia for it's existence.



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06 Mar 2014, 2:19 pm

The question remains, why is the west, and now China, trying to stir Russia over a country that is pretty much Russian now? It is very odd. What we are looking at might be covert evil right under our noses. True example of underground forces of disruption and destruction at work happening right before our eyes, daily. Weird.



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06 Mar 2014, 2:28 pm

Even if Ukraine is economically dependent of Russia, it seems the native Ukrainians have always seen themselves as a distinct nation, and not Russians.


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06 Mar 2014, 2:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Even if Ukraine is economically dependent of Russia, it seems the native Ukrainians have always seen themselves as a distinct nation, and not Russians.

Oh the Ukrainians despise the Russians. The Russian once killed Ukrainians with famine as their weapon of choice. So, they do need protecting from the Russians if history tells us anything.
When you hear US and China blah blah blahing about territorial integrity of Ukraine, you have to wonder, how is it possible considering the sentiment of these Ukrainians? Would it ever work? That's where US and China are lost on the situation.



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06 Mar 2014, 2:53 pm

simon_says wrote:
I suspected it would be the case in this thread as well. But writers who know more than I do suggest Putin will stop short of taking land.

And there was no provocation in Crimea. Putin is telling a series of outrageous lies because he can. According to him Russia is fully justified because of x,y,z....and yet Russian troops aren't even there according to Putin. He's speaking to his low information Russian Archie Bunker base and he can say pretty much anything without fear of a pointed question. He can create any pretext he wants or just claim there was a pretext after the fact. It's just down to what he wants to happen.


The provocation was in Kiev in the form of the coup backed by the West with Nazi shock troops; the Nazis now run the Defence Ministry, the Defence Council, the police and the office of chief prosecutor. That in and of itself is provocation. What about the language law that was passed first thing? The West interfered in Ukraine in the name of their rank imperialism and used Nazis as shock troops to that end; they are the problem and the original sinners in this crisis.



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06 Mar 2014, 2:55 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
So, Russia invaded Georgia on the pretext of protecting ethnic Russians, and has now invaded Ukraine on the pretext of protecting ethnic Russians. Who's next, London? Seriously, though, it provides a justification for governments to refuse to allow any more immigration from Russia.


Not ethnic Russians, ethnic Ossetians, Ossetians being one of the peoples of the Russian Federation.



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06 Mar 2014, 2:59 pm

And notice this all happens with spring and summer just around the corner, right? Is that just coincidence? This could have been planned for quite some time. I can just about guarantee there is more to this than meets the eye.



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06 Mar 2014, 3:23 pm

Quote:
The provocation was in Kiev in the form of the coup backed by the West with Nazi shock troops; the Nazis now run the Defence Ministry, the Defence Council, the police and the office of chief prosecutor. That in and of itself is provocation. What about the language law that was passed first thing? The West interfered in Ukraine in the name of their rank imperialism and used Nazis as shock troops to that end; they are the problem and the original sinners in this crisis.


The acting president of Ukraine is a Baptist from a moderate party. The acting Prime Minister is a Jew. The parliament is the same as before and unanimously impeached the former President. There will be new elections in May. A few right wing people are in certain posts but that's very far from the whole government.

The language issue is an ongoing struggle over a law passed in 2012 in favor of regional languages. The new President vetoed the effort to set aside the 2012 law so in fact nothing has changed at all. He says they'll look at the issue again once they find a balanced solution.

Meanwhile Putin won't even admit that his troops are surrounding Ukrainian bases. :lol:



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06 Mar 2014, 4:30 pm

The conflict cannot be downplayed enough it seems...



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06 Mar 2014, 7:12 pm

If non governmental protesters can bring down the national government, then elected regional protesters should be able to overthrow themselves.

Taking over the whole country by protest is approved, but not the provinces?

Massa Obama yells about International Law, but does not give a link to it.

Czechoslovakia did split, and Yugoslavia did in a hostile manner.

No International Glue Law was applied.

Kurdistan is recent, and another was proposed in Syria, Al Kiadastan.

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary, it happens.

Partition or civil war. What is the lessor evil?



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06 Mar 2014, 8:00 pm

Revolutions happen. That's the world. But sending in soldiers without markings to try to steal your neighbor's territory has traditionally been frowned upon. And it's quite natural that other nations will make a stink. Maybe even enjoy making one. Putin is a big boy and will have to endure it. You don't have to cry for him. He doesn't care. :lol:

When a foreign power surrounds your army bases with soldiers, orders your naval ships to surrender and then blocks another portion of your fleet up by scuttling a wreck in the bay, well, those are acts of war. They will always be acts of war. It also seems clear to me that Russia wants to take as much of the Ukrainian fleet as possible. Putin has said that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was the 20th century's greatest tragedy and I think he wants his boats back, as well as some land and the port.