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Philosofer123
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20 Mar 2014, 4:01 pm

Hopper wrote:
Do I understand right that you have been constructing these arguments to a desired outcome? It is, of course, your philosophy. I was in a bit of rush earlier (having freely decided to go out...), so didn't consider the wider circumstance of your ideas and arguments.

That is, you want to render irrational a number of negative emotions, to not be constrained by obective moral facts, so look at free will and morality respectively in such a way as to bring about these desired ends.


Actually, it is just a happy coincidence that free will impossibilism promotes peace of mind. Moral skepticism may not directly promote peace of mind, but helps to establish the conclusion that peace of mind should be one's primary goal. I developed those positions first, then determined that peace of mind is the appropriate goal.

Hopper wrote:
If so, what purpose is there in having your philosophy critiqued? Are you recommending this philosophy to all? You seem convinced of your arguments and ideas. I am not, but it feels a wee bit churlish and pointless to be explaining why. I do enjoy enaging with/thinking about this sort of thing, though.


I am asking for feedback so that I may improve the document. I am open to changing my positions should I realize that they are incorrect.

While the primary purpose of the document is to advise myself on how to live well (see page 1), I do aspire to objectivity, and I believe that others would benefit from following my philosophy.

Please feel free to explain why you disagree with any of my arguments or positions. This is why I posted the document.



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20 Mar 2014, 5:05 pm

I will say that your first move is to dismiss free will. The rest of the argument relies on your being free to act on the consequences of your thought. You consider whether we may or may not want to break the law, or donate to a political cause. If you have no free will, this is nonsense, except in that you are predetermined to think and write about these things in the way you have.

It seems to me a variation on the argument that, if we have no free will, we should not punish criminals, but perhaps simply keep them out of society in some way. Well, how would we do this if we have no free will? It may or may not come to be so, but the idea that we can consider the idea and then act on it relies on us having free will, the dismissal of which has brought us to the consideration.

Now, perhaps you mean to assert that free will does not exist in the way as we may normally suppose, where we consider it necessary to attribute responsibility. That, in some sense, though we can choose between options, we do not have free will. And I can't see how that makes sense.



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20 Mar 2014, 5:19 pm

Hopper wrote:
I will say that your first move is to dismiss free will. The rest of the argument relies on your being free to act on the consequences of your thought. You consider whether we may or may not want to break the law, or donate to a political cause. If you have no free will, this is nonsense, except in that you are predetermined to think and write about these things in the way you have.

It seems to me a variation on the argument that, if we have no free will, we should not punish criminals, but perhaps simply keep them out of society in some way. Well, how would we do this if we have no free will? It may or may not come to be so, but the idea that we can consider the idea and then act on it relies on us having free will, the dismissal of which has brought us to the consideration.

Now, perhaps you mean to assert that free will does not exist in the way as we may normally suppose, where we consider it necessary to attribute responsibility. That, in some sense, though we can choose between options, we do not have free will. And I can't see how that makes sense.


The regress argument (see page 3) demonstrates that although we can deliberate and choose between options, we cannot be ultimately responsible for our actions. This is a perfectly coherent position. If you would like elaboration, please see the following article by philosopher Galen Strawson:

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/V014

My only difference with Strawson is that I do not couch things in terms of "moral" responsibility, since I am a moral skeptic.



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20 Mar 2014, 5:21 pm

Please note that I have edited the OP to include the direct links to my philosophy, as I am now allowed to do so.



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20 Mar 2014, 6:15 pm

Is "your philosophy" an attempt to "live better", or an attempt to describe the true nature of humans and their reality?

I believe in determinism, psychological egoism, and motivational hedonism, however, I don't believe in them because I think people can "live better", or have "peace of mind". I believe in them because that is how I think humans and reality function.

Philosofer123 wrote:
The regress argument (see page 3) demonstrates that although we can deliberate and choose between options, we cannot be ultimately responsible for our actions. :


Am I correct to say that your "choice among options" is the deterministic view that the "illusion" of choice exits, but the outcome is already determined? And that is the reason you find no moral responsibility for making the "wrong choice" ?



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20 Mar 2014, 7:04 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Is "your philosophy" an attempt to "live better", or an attempt to describe the true nature of humans and their reality?

I believe in determinism, psychological egoism, and motivational hedonism, however, I don't believe in them because I think people can "live better", or have "peace of mind". I believe in them because that is how I think humans and reality function.


My philosophy is an attempt to live well. However, in order to determine what it means to "live well", I needed to determine the true nature of at least certain aspects of reality. And this is what I have attempted to do.

LoveNotHate wrote:
Philosofer123 wrote:
The regress argument (see page 3) demonstrates that although we can deliberate and choose between options, we cannot be ultimately responsible for our actions. :


Am I correct to say that your "choice among options" is the deterministic view that the "illusion" of choice exits, but the outcome is already determined?


In fact, the regress argument does not assume determinism; it works whether or not determinism is true.

LoveNotHate wrote:
And that is the reason you find no moral responsibility for making the "wrong choice" ?


As a moral skeptic (see page 3), I do not couch things in terms of "moral" responsibility or "wrong" choices.



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20 Mar 2014, 9:58 pm

Philosofer123 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Is "your philosophy" an attempt to "live better", or an attempt to describe the true nature of humans and their reality?

I believe in determinism, psychological egoism, and motivational hedonism, however, I don't believe in them because I think people can "live better", or have "peace of mind". I believe in them because that is how I think humans and reality function.


My philosophy is an attempt to live well. However, in order to determine what it means to "live well", I needed to determine the true nature of at least certain aspects of reality. And this is what I have attempted to do.

LoveNotHate wrote:
Philosofer123 wrote:
The regress argument (see page 3) demonstrates that although we can deliberate and choose between options, we cannot be ultimately responsible for our actions. :


Am I correct to say that your "choice among options" is the deterministic view that the "illusion" of choice exits, but the outcome is already determined?


In fact, the regress argument does not assume determinism; it works whether or not determinism is true.

LoveNotHate wrote:
And that is the reason you find no moral responsibility for making the "wrong choice" ?


As a moral skeptic (see page 3), I do not couch things in terms of "moral" responsibility or "wrong" choices.


The "free will impossibilism" regress argument does not make sense to me. It states that free will is impossible, because a person's mental state is formed based on prior effects that were not of the person's origination.

However, all humans have mental states formed by prior effects not of their origination.

The brain itself is formed based on the parent's DNA, and no one selects their parents. Thus, it would seem like regressing to human conception would appear to render "free will impossibilism" to the silly argument of "free will is impossible, because I did not select my parents" ???



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20 Mar 2014, 10:04 pm

I haven't read it but it sounds a little like stoicism to me.



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20 Mar 2014, 10:09 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
The "free will impossibilism" regress argument does not make sense to me. It states that free will is impossible, because a person's mental state is formed based on prior effects that were not of the person's origination.

However, all humans have mental states formed by prior effects not of their origination.


Exactly. That is why free will (defined as "that which is sufficient for one to be ultimately responsible for one's intentional actions") is impossible.

LoveNotHate wrote:
The brain itself is formed based on the parent's DNA, and no one selects their parents. Thus, it would seem like regressing to human conception would appear to render "free will impossibilism" to the silly argument of "free will is impossible, because I did not select my parents" ???


What is so silly about that? It just shows that ultimate responsibility is an incoherent concept. All of our actions are ultimately and completely a function of factors outside of our control, such as heredity, sensory input, and perhaps random or indeterministic factors.



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20 Mar 2014, 10:24 pm

I didn't have the chance to read the whole article yet, barely been home today yet and need to go to sleep real soon.

What I might at least be able to provide is the best I could come up with when I was of the atheist/agnostic viewpoint and trying to find peace within that.

It seems like, no matter where one's beliefs come from with respect to the ultimate outlook on continuity of consciousness that there are things we can fundamentally agree on. The biggest challenge for being a full-determinist atheist is trying to figure out what to make of this life and experience as its being given to you to experience (and I use the term 'give' loosely - by either sentient or utterly nonsentient forces it makes no difference) and particularly so when it comes with no inherent meaning, no guarantees aside from death and taxes, and a constant realization that as one gets older things will keep getting stripped from them and life will essentially run in reverse. The other challenge is dealing with the evil in the world and not just dealing with your own even if you're having a hard life but also seeing all of the suffering around you and within in the lines of what's really there trying to figure out what's the best available to be made of your life inclusive inclusive of how you can best alleviate suffering.

On one hand being a full determinist and not believing in continuity of consciousness puts us in a place where there's a half eternity of blank/nonconscious nothing on either side of a normally 60 to 90 year slice of creative/geometric/sense-oriented nothing, ie. it's pure weather. On the other hand what you do have with that in terms of empathy for other human beings is even more the notion that every other node of consciousness is chained to the same ultimate fate and considering the circumstances needs, if you want to be as fair with them as you'd be with yourself, as much compassion as you can possibly give.

One of the biggest challenges with a strong atheist/determinist stance is that if life is truly going bad and with nowhere to turn for physical solutions, suicide comes up rather quickly on the list of options (which in many cases people see the suffering of existence being greater than literal nonexistence regardless of how dumb some former members of this sight may claim that sounds - they can jump up and down swearing that a person who'd say that can't possibly be accurately imagining what it would be like to quite literally not exist - they're just missing the reality that for many people quality matters more than quantity and if quantity is an evil then as much decrease in quantity as possible is demanded). If a culture were to really adjust itself to full determinism as a mode of belief it would really have to rethink its stigma on suicide and also rethink it's still somewhat psychotic reaction to the subject of death or general taboo on the topic. It's not to say that people can't help themselves (well, technically without free will you can't help but be what's inside of you but that includes an incredibly complex quantity of outcomes), its just that to have a society that has the greatest good for the greatest many we would need to go raw utilitarian, pretty much Jeremy Bentham uncut, and that takes an incredibly libertarian outlook on what we tend to consider 'ultimate' issues.

I do believe that meditation still helps and if there's anything I could implore more atheists to do who aren't familiar with this kind of logic - work in the subjective and use the subjective to your advantage. In life it's an incredible asset to attain a proper realization to the effect that how far you can go in life is controlled in large part by your degree of handle on your motivation. Your degree of handle on your motivation is manipulated best by your inner world, how you shape it, how you rest and recharge, and how you budget your energy. Similarly I'd condone something along the lines of adult imaginative play, internal dialoguing, etc. because its one of the most accessible ways for one to effect a change from within that the outside world would eventually need to accept rather than the person in question being a perpetual slave to the outside world. In this respect, while I consider the butt-hurt aspect of Laveyan Satanism to be a but unhealthy/unhelpful I do like their strive to be all that they can be as well as their willingness to use Jungian archetypes, play with ceremonial magic even for little more than their sense of its psychological payoff even if it were only brain chemicals and nothing else. Similarly finding any way possible to have a good working relationship with your subconscious mind is critical for getting the most out of yourself and out or your life possible.



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21 Mar 2014, 12:01 am

Philosofer123 wrote:

What is so silly about that?


The statement "free will is impossible, because I did not select my parents" is silly , because it appears to absolve all humans of responsibility merely for existing.

Philosofer123 wrote:
It just shows that ultimate responsibility is an incoherent concept. All of our actions are ultimately and completely a function of factors outside of our control, such as heredity, sensory input, and perhaps random or indeterministic factors


This appears like you believe that decision-making in the brain is deterministic based on prior influencing factors ?

However, you stated earlier that the "free will impossibilism" argument is not based on determinism, thus, where is the rationale for your statement of "all of our actions are ultimately and completely a function of factors outside of our control"? (It sounds like you are borrowing from determinism to make that assertion).

Further, if the "free will is impossible" regress argument is esstentially a deterministic argument, then your critics may argue from a Quantum Mechanic perspective that actions are determined based on probability not determinism.



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21 Mar 2014, 9:29 am

If I have a particular position, I think I'm a pragmatist, and I'm certainly a pluralist. I've been reading William James of late, and it's that experience of someone else expressing your ideas in a much clearer, better thought out way. As such, I think the individual forms ideas and concepts and beliefs that help them make sense of the world, and to help them live with as little unwanted disruption as possible.

I am assuming a non-deterministic self. That is, I could choose whether or not to shave today, and it was not pre-determined that I would not. I chose not to shave. I could have chosen to shave. I had a meaningful choice, because I was free to take either option - both appealed - and I chose one over the other. So, I have free will. It is not a 'limited' free will. There are constraints placed on me, in terms of the physical and social and economic (I cannot breathe unaided underwater, or run around the streets naked without being arrested, or go out and buy a £200,000 house) etc, as to behavioural options that are open to me. But none of these mean my free will itself is limited.

As my free will is not limited - it simply is - neither is my responsibility. Responsibility need not be ultimate in the way you propose to be meaningful. Indeed, responsibility within a given circumstance is, with every choice made, already ultimate. We can plead certain mitigations, certain trying circumstances - responsibility, after all, has moral, and often legal, repercussions. We can determine that some choices should not have to be made, and work socially/politically to make them as unlikely as possible. But these mitigations start from and work on the understanding that, by and large, responsibility simply is.

Responsibility as understood and applied always-already is ultimate, unless certain factors are agreed/allowed to diminish it.

Even if I could argue for 'full' responsibility as a general rule to your satisfaction, I suppose you would argue moral skepticism? I shall have to come back to that.



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21 Mar 2014, 12:32 pm

Say there p123,

Is this a paper for a class? You're not expecting us to do your homework for you, are you? It's just that your paper seems so "empty" and unfinished.....is this why you're asking us to complete it for you? A little help here....

How do you see your paper in regards to our Wrong Planet forum? How did you pick this forum for your philosophic wanderings? What is the subject of "your studies?"

Just curious' are you an N.T.? Are we questioned to check for variances between us and N.T.s in terms of your "philosophy?"

denny

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And since you state you will not answer interrogative questions....only question to fulfill YOUR "unstated" purpose I would suggest no one cooperate with you until we find out the answers to OUR (not your) questions.



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21 Mar 2014, 1:18 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Philosofer123 wrote:

What is so silly about that?


The statement "free will is impossible, because I did not select my parents" is silly , because it appears to absolve all humans of responsibility merely for existing.


Again, the regress argument shows that ultimate responsibility is impossible. If you would like to refute the argument itself, then you must either show that one or more of its premises is not necessarily true, or that its premises do not entail its conclusion or both. Feel free to try.

LoveNotHate wrote:
Philosofer123 wrote:
It just shows that ultimate responsibility is an incoherent concept. All of our actions are ultimately and completely a function of factors outside of our control, such as heredity, sensory input, and perhaps random or indeterministic factors


This appears like you believe that decision-making in the brain is deterministic based on prior influencing factors ?


Please read my quote again. Note my mention of "indeterministic factors".

LoveNotHate wrote:
However, you stated earlier that the "free will impossibilism" argument is not based on determinism, thus, where is the rationale for your statement of "all of our actions are ultimately and completely a function of factors outside of our control"? (It sounds like you are borrowing from determinism to make that assertion).

Further, if the "free will is impossible" regress argument is esstentially a deterministic argument, then your critics may argue from a Quantum Mechanic perspective that actions are determined based on probability not determinism.


Again, please read my quote again ("indeterministic factors"). I am not assuming determinism.



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21 Mar 2014, 1:23 pm

ZenDen wrote:
Say there p123,

Is this a paper for a class? You're not expecting us to do your homework for you, are you? It's just that your paper seems so "empty" and unfinished.....is this why you're asking us to complete it for you? A little help here....

How do you see your paper in regards to our Wrong Planet forum? How did you pick this forum for your philosophic wanderings? What is the subject of "your studies?"

Just curious' are you an N.T.? Are we questioned to check for variances between us and N.T.s in terms of your "philosophy?"

denny

P.S.
And since you state you will not answer interrogative questions....only question to fulfill YOUR "unstated" purpose I would suggest no one cooperate with you until we find out the answers to OUR (not your) questions.


I am a retired executive, and this is not a paper for a class. The document is neither "empty" nor "unfinished", in the sense that it is a complete philosophy of life that I have successfully followed for several years. That said, it may not be perfect either, which is why I am soliciting feedback. I posted on this forum because it is (1) relatively active, (2) contains mostly high-quality posts, and (3) has a noticeable lack of trolls. I am neurotypical.



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21 Mar 2014, 2:52 pm

Philosofer123 wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
Say there p123,

Is this a paper for a class? You're not expecting us to do your homework for you, are you? It's just that your paper seems so "empty" and unfinished.....is this why you're asking us to complete it for you? A little help here....

How do you see your paper in regards to our Wrong Planet forum? How did you pick this forum for your philosophic wanderings? What is the subject of "your studies?"

Just curious' are you an N.T.? Are we questioned to check for variances between us and N.T.s in terms of your "philosophy?"

denny

P.S.
And since you state you will not answer interrogative questions....only question to fulfill YOUR "unstated" purpose I would suggest no one cooperate with you until we find out the answers to OUR (not your) questions.


I am a retired executive, and this is not a paper for a class. The document is neither "empty" nor "unfinished", in the sense that it is a complete philosophy of life that I have successfully followed for several years. That said, it may not be perfect either, which is why I am soliciting feedback. I posted on this forum because it is (1) relatively active, (2) contains mostly high-quality posts, and (3) has a noticeable lack of trolls. I am neurotypical.


Thank you, that's very interesting. I'm also a retired "executive."
So you recognize your effort "may be" somewhat unfinished, or perhaps more accurately: unpolished (?). Cool. Were you involved in health or medicine, or what? You seem quite erudite, which makes me wonder.

But I still wonder why you specifically chose Wrong Planet, a safe home for us autistics and etc., for your specific effort. In other words, what was it about Wrong Planet that caught your experienced eye when you were researching different sites? Or perhaps you were looking for a specific type or mix of venues?

denny