Denying the holocaust

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God cannot alter the past, though historians can.
Samuel Butler

The US is at war with Iraq and at peace with Japan. The US has always been at war with Iraq and at peace with Japan.

Naw! It just seems that way.

Unfortunately, the psychos who don't believe in the holocaust have as much right to state their opinion as anyone else. However, it is disrespectful beyond belief to deny that the death of over 10 million innocent people ever happened.

Once you're dead, respect doesn't carry much weight.

Nice pun Sand.... <.<

I think you should read some of it Orwell. There's a lot of propaganda still floating around from WW2, after all, who was it that said that history is written by the victors? Even watching mainstream history documentaries on TV it's obvious to anyone over 30 that the "reality" of the conflict was somewhat different to that which we were taught as kids.

Why? The documentary evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming and the virtually unanimous opinion of actual historians is that it did in fact occur.


"Different" in the sense that it was not a pure "good vs evil" battle, but then what is? Actually, the history I was taught as a kid wasn't completely one-sided in regards to WWII. We of course talked about the Japanese internment, and, though it was not emphasized as much, there is the recognition that an alliance with Stalinist Russia is, at the least, quite troubling. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

As you're studying a science, Orwell, I imagined you know the importance of considering the differing opinions, and then drawing your own conclusion. A particular viewpoint can seem extremely convincing on its own, but the less-obvious flaws are often revealed when studying the opposing views. As for the overwhelming opinion you mentioned, there's not really much chance of any historian who values their liberty or career saying anything else, is there?


I'm getting at the point that what's considered acceptable changes for political reasons. If you relate some of what's now written about WW2 to people like my parents, they think you're mad. Even now, things are still recounted in a rather one-sided way, and as many veterans of the conflict are still alive, I can understand that, to a degree.

In-depth critical examination of every single fact I know is not feasible or desirable. The academic disciplines are largely driven by consensus, and this even includes the sciences. When differing opinions are self-evidently in conflict with available documentary evidence, there is little reason to entertain them further, particularly when the alternate viewpoint is driven by an obvious agenda.


Professors who have tenure can say whatever the hell they want without jeopardizing their careers. And many history professors are quite fond of reinterpreting history- after all, every historian wants to be the visionary who changes the way people look at history. The only way historians have of contributing to their field is by saying previous historians got it wrong.

But the details of what exactly happened to them are relevant – you can get put into prison for questioning them. That’s what this thread is all about!

Specifically (and maybe I or someone else should have spelled this out by now) the details you must believe on pain of imprisonment (in certain countries) are (1) the Nazis had a plan to exterminate all the Jews of Europe (2) their main weapon of mass murder was the gas chamber, and (3) 6 million Jews were killed

Of course dying of typhus in a concentration camp is a terrible, tragic fate. But the issue I’m raising is ‘is the holocaust story true?’ If not, then what makes the sad fate of the Jews in the German concentration camps the defining event of 20th century (or should I say world?) history? Surely you can see there’s a moral difference between interning a mass of civilians for security reasons during wartime and deliberately trying to exterminate an entire race.

And by the way, the numbers you refer to vary greatly depending on which census date you look at.



I’m humbled by your linguistic ability, but I never claimed that Nazis did not kill civilians. I’d prefer not to have to spend my time on this thread defending myself against straw men like that. If people are going to direct comments at me, I’d prefer it if they could show that they’ve grasped the issue I was raising (the question of whether or not the holocaust story is true) and that they can either address the evidence I’ve provided or provide some evidence of their own. (Like maybe you know an old guy with a tattoo on his arm, or maybe you went to the Auschwitz museum and saw a pile of shoes. I will also take ‘say that in such-and-such a place and you’ll get your balls ripped off’ type comments as they come, but I might not find them convincing as evidence for the holocaust story.)



Where? When? Which people? How?
I think the number of innocent people who died during WW2 was over 10 million. But I’m interested in the question of whether or not the official account of the holocaust is true.

Last edited by flipflopjenkins on 29 Apr 2009, 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

What a fallacious argument. Your argument is basically ‘why question ABC when you don’t question XYZ?; Better just to believe everything you’re told’.
I mean, Jeez, we should be grateful Galileo didn’t share your attitude. (Imagine the scene: but Galileo, you do not question the history of the Peloponnesian War, so why do you waste your time questioning the geocentric model of the universe!)

But anyway, you asked for a difference. One difference is that you cannot get put in prison anywhere in Europe for disputing Newtonian physics or the atomic theory of matter. This does suggest (as everyone knows) that the Holocaust story has huge political significance, just as the geocentric model of the universe had huge political significance in the middle ages (whereas developments in physics these days have almost no political significance, at least not since the Pope decided to agree with the Big Bang Theory).

Another difference is that I am interested in the holocaust, whereas I am less interested in say the Battle of Hastings, and if someone on another thread started asking unfashionable questions about the Battle of Hastings I would not make several posts saying how uninteresting I found the subject, and I would not go on about how much evidence there is for XYZ and then refuse to provide any.

Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; the six volumes of Churchill's Second World War total 4,448 pages; and de Gaulle's three-volume Memoires de guerre is 2,054 pages. I challenge you to find among all this writing a single mention of Nazi "gas chambers," a "genocide" of the Jews, or of "six million" Jewish victims of the war. (Hint: you won’t find any.)

Can you show me a single Nazi document that speaks of a plan to kill all the Jews of Europe or that speaks of the use of gas chambers for mass murder?

Can you point me towards a single forensic examination of a single gassing victim?

If only Leon Poliakov had met you while he was alive. Here’s what he said again: Only the campaign to exterminate the Jews, as regards its conception as well as many other essential aspects, remains shrouded in darkness … The three or four people chiefly involved in the actual drawing up of the plan for total extermination are dead and no documents have survived, perhaps none ever existed

And Raoul Hilberg, the most famous holocaust historian of them all said that the Holocaust was not planned in advance, nor organized centrally by any agency, without blueprint or budget, but was instead achieved by "an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy,"

Telepathy, basically.

The most well-known postwar confession is the Nuremberg confession of Rudolf Hoess, commandant at Auschwitz. You can see what he said on the Yale University website. He said at least 2.5 million people were killed at Auschwitz. But the US Holocaust Museum website says it was 1.1 million. He said that when he received his extermination orders in June 1941 extermination camps already existed at Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. One, Wolzek does not even exist. Two any online encyclopedia will tell you Belzec did not begin operating until March 1942, Treblinka July 1942.

The staunch anti-Nazi Rupert Butler wrote in Legions of Death wrote about how Hoess was nearly tortured to death after the Allies captured him:

Höss screamed in terror at the mere sight of British uniforms.Clarke yelled "What is your name?"With each answer of "Franz Lang," Clarke's hand crashed into the face of his prisoner. The fourth time that happened, Höss broke and admitted who he was.The admission suddenly unleashed the loathing of the Jewish sergeants in the arresting party whose parents had died in Auschwitz following an order signed by Höss.The prisoner was torn from the top bunk, the pyjamas ripped from his body. He was then dragged naked to one of the slaughter tables, where it seemed to Clarke the blows and screams were endless.Eventually, the Medical Officer urged the Captain: "Call them off, unless you want to take back a corpse."A blanket was thrown over Höss and he was dragged to Clarke's car, where the sergeant poured a substantial slug of whisky down his throat. Then Höss tried to sleep.Clarke thrust his service stick under the man's eyelids and ordered in German: "Keep your pig eyes open, you swine."For the first time Höss trotted out his oft-repeated justification: "I took my orders from Himmler. I am a soldier in the same way as you are a soldier and we had to obey orders."

Can we really be sure his confession is reliable?

Concenik posted an article from 1919 mentioning the “crucifixion” of six million. It wasn’t the only time before WW2 organized Jewish groups mentioned the 6 million figure. You can find a bunch of examples online at the New York Times archives.

Rabbi Wise's Address
'There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism. They come not to beg, but ask for that which is higher than all material things. They seek to have satisfied the unquenchable thirst after the ideal. They ask to become once again the messengers of right, justice, and humanity."
The New York Times June 11 1900, page 7
source

MILLIONS IN DIRE DISTRESS
Jacob H. Schiff, Meyer London, and Dr. Enelow Plead with the Rich to Give.

"Louis Marshall, speaking at a meeting in Temple Emanu-El last night, deplored what he termed the failure of the Jews of America, particularly of New York, to realize the terrible calamity that has overtaken the millions of Jews whose homes are in the eastern theater of the European war.
...more than 6,000,000 are in the heart of the war zone; Jews whose lives are at stake and who today are subjected to every manner of suffering and sorrow..."
The New York Times January 14 1915
source

FELIX M. WARBURG TELLS
SAD PLIGHT OF JEWS.

"Felix M. Warburg, Chairman of the Joint Distribution Committee of American Funds for Jewish War Sufferers, who returned several days ago from a trip to Europe for that organization, made public yesterday some of his findings.....'The successive blows of contending armies have all but broken the back of European Jewry,' he said, 'and have reduced to tragically unbelievable poverty, starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls.."
The New York Times November 12 1919, page 7
source

JEWS ASK PUBLIC TO AID WAR VICTIMS
Non-Sectarian Appeal for $7,500,000 Starts Today with Sermons in All Churches.

"A famished child upon the auction block, a mother in the foreground pleading for aid, death with outstretched arms lurking near and the legend, 'Shall Death Be the Highest Bidder?'
...$7,500,000 to be raised here this week by the Greater New York Appeal for Jewish War Sufferers.....'Hunger, cold rags, desolation, disease, death – Six million human beings, without food, shelter, clothing or medical treatment"
The New York Times May 2nd 1920, Section 2 page 1
source

Well, no, I was just pointing out that the reason given for why I should study Holocaust revisionism doesn't really stack up, because the claim was basically that I can't state anything to be true unless I've done extensive research on the subject, and such a restriction would prevent me from ever believing anything.


A classic fringe lunatic meme. Carl Sagan: "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." Your argument is fallacious, and is basically an appeal to non-conformism.


And I think it's stupid that Holocaust denial is banned.


The Holocaust is obviously a special interest of yours, and I don't really feel like engaging in a debate over it. I don't want to conduct a massive research project just to shut up some random conspiracy theorist on a message board, especially since any evidence I produce you would probably dismiss as faked or part of some massive Zionist hoax.