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badgerface
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10 Feb 2015, 10:31 am

Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.


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ApertaVerbum
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10 Feb 2015, 11:32 am

badgerface wrote:
Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.


I've always considered free will a bit of a problem. You cannot observe something without altering it, so either God is ignoring us or God is altering our lives and thus removing some aspects of free will.

They really need to rewrite the Bible to be more like Aesop's fables, wisdom without faith is universal.

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aghogday
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10 Feb 2015, 11:36 am

Cyd wrote:
My favorite anecdote with regard to the absurdity of arguing about it is the atheist who picked up an orrery from the desk of a theist and asked "Who made this?", to which the theist replied, "Nobody.". LOL - that cracks me up every time.

What always strikes me about this whole argument is the automatic assumption that "design" = "God". Why must it be a God? Why can't it just be someone with a better understanding of how the universe works? Pfft.

Whether it's a God or the laws that govern this universe, what does it matter? Man has been in constant conflict with it, from day one. Things are the way they are and work the way they work and man has been at odds with "it", since...practically for his ever.

If you think about it, it's nothing more than a really old meme. "I have the ability to think, therefore I know that the laws that govern the universe are wrong.". "Truth, reality and the universe are all defective.", that's man's take on it all.

Perhaps it is a phase - like the "terrible twos". Sentience is little more than an infant, in the grand scheme of things - thinking man knows what's what is absurd.

Has anyone ever bothered to ask the universe what's what? We don't exist OUTSIDE of this universe - consciousness doesn't exist OUTSIDE of it - it's a part of it. Whatever consciousness there is, the WHOLE of it is the consciousness OF this universe. And that's NOT "pie in the sky" - it's MATH.

The universe is conscious. You KNOW that because YOU'RE conscious. ASK it - NOT for "proof" that you're right, but for a display of what's actually what, DESPITE what you believe. Just ASK it. Ask it OFTEN. It's a lifelong exploration and conversation. There's no end to it. There is no "definitive" scope to it. It's what draws the life in you forward - exploration - discovery. Life's a hoot! Life's SUPPOSED to be a HOOT - ensuring the continued interest OF it which perpetually draws it forward and into more life.

That's my take, anyway. If you quit worrying about irrelevancies, life's a hoot - who CARES where it came from?!?!

I think autism is a perfect example of it. We exist and we exist in THIS universe. It's our home, too, and NOBODY has the authority to declare us "mistakes" or "defects".


Yes.. i agree.. the devil's in the details of thinking..

And GOD IS IN BIG PICTURE THINKING..;)

THEREFORE.. potentially polar opposite views for folks who think in details..
as opposed to those who think in BIG PICTURE WAYS..

OR BOTH..

and the SPECTRUM of all of that...IS
GOD TO
ME..;)
TOO....:)


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aghogday
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10 Feb 2015, 11:47 am

ApertaVerbum wrote:
badgerface wrote:
Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.


I've always considered free will a bit of a problem. You cannot observe something without altering it, so either God is ignoring us or God is altering our lives and thus removing some aspects of free will.

They really need to rewrite the Bible to be more like Aesop's fables, wisdom without faith is universal.

Aperta Verbum
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YES! great idea on the Aesop's fables thingy, and i am currently doing that as a writing hobby..with my own freelance.. free verse bible stye.. HA! ha!...

AND i refer to free will as RELATIVE FREE WILL, AS OBVIOUSLY THAT varies as a spectrum.. per environment, innate factors, and other factors potentially unknown, per modern ways of science, at least for NOW..:)

i think truly smart folks work with MOTHER Nature and Human NATURE.. ONCE they get it figured out.. better.. and better.. as life goes on..

But of course not all folks 'evolve' like this, sadly as may be THAT CASE.. as well...

Some folks have little relative free will.. and for some.. the FORCE OF THAT WILL is Strong..

Just like they say..

IN THE STAR WARS...

fable..;)

JUST DO THE FORCE.. WHEN IT'S WITH YA..!

NIKE SPACEY STYLE!

THE DARK side is the other option.. PER THE dark force opposing the LIGHT FORCE.. Darth Nike Vader style...

i think i'll use cartoon characters for my Apostles.. or maybe Michael Jordan.. Bruce Lee..



or Katy Perry.. and that list goes on........


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Last edited by aghogday on 10 Feb 2015, 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Andrejake
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10 Feb 2015, 11:56 am

badgerface wrote:
Yep; god gave us all free will. Free will to believe in him and follow his rules, without doubt or question or burn in hell for eternity.


Again, it is the consequence of a choice.
Let's say that I promise to my son that I will never interfere with his life, but I will give him some advices. As an absolute being I will not turn back on my word. So, if someday, my son decide that he should try to put his hand on the fire to see if it really burns despite the fact that I already warned him he will face the consequences. I have not created fire to burn his hand, neither was this my intention from the very beginning, he just did something that he shouldn't and it was out of my reach to stop him because I decided to let him choose to obey me or not. There is a difference.
God did not create hell for us humans and also wasn't His plan to put humans here to live as slaves to His will or otherwise burn. But since the choice to be apart of Him is made the consequences will be faced.



badgerface
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10 Feb 2015, 12:06 pm

...how convenient :roll:

Conveniently contrived and very effective at being used to control the tribe, of course. Hence the reason for religion in the first place, and hence the reason it's still stubbornly around today. Fear.


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badgerface
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10 Feb 2015, 12:09 pm

Image


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badgerface
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10 Feb 2015, 12:11 pm

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Last edited by badgerface on 10 Feb 2015, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

badgerface
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10 Feb 2015, 12:14 pm

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Andrejake
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10 Feb 2015, 12:28 pm

Your statement makes me understand that, for you, everyone that believes in God is because of fear of going to hell. I can't argue about the fact that a lot of churches teaches about God this way and that this may be the main motivation for a lot of people, but for me fear is definitely not the reason that i believe in God. Hell is actually something that I wasn't even thinking about when I started to believe in God, so no, your statement is not truth (but this is too subjective to discuss).
And... well, you just reaffirmed what you said a few posts ago with some ironic images without countering anything and I don't know how to move forward in a discussion this way, so I don't have nothing more to say.



AngelRho
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10 Feb 2015, 5:03 pm

ApertaVerbum wrote:
Before we prove a physical entity and ascribe to it Godhood, first we have to describe what criteria God must meet.

Not necessarily.

ApertaVerbum wrote:
To be all powerful God must be able to pick up any thing no matter how large, to be all powerful God must be able to make something so large nothing can move it.

"Must be able to…" Why assume that the ability of God to do one thing or another necessarily means that God WILL do it?

ApertaVerbum wrote:
Its not a futile discussion,

Yes it is.

ApertaVerbum wrote:
it points out one important thing, how large would a boulder need to be before only God could lift it? If such a marker is set and something else can lift it, does that thing become God as well?

It's not important at all.

ApertaVerbum wrote:
The real aim is to ascertain at what point something ascends to be God. Even if you believe in just one (Catholic) God, that God must have its own criteria one of which seems to be a focus on humility, yet at what point did God decide to stop being humble and decide that everything in creation should worship it.

OK, now you're changing the subject.

There is a distinct difference between deciding everything in creation SHOULD worship you versus compelling all creation to worship you. Humanity has never been compelled to worship God.

ApertaVerbum wrote:
The point being that to be God you must adhere to certain beliefs,

Oh, so you're in charge of God now?

ApertaVerbum wrote:
if consider that some people believe in intelligent design, we are at a stage now where designer babies are something we can create, does this mean that humans have become the 'Intelligent designers' of our own race. If so, is it unfeasible that in the future we gain time travel technology go back and seed Earth with life. does that mean that humans are the God attributed to intelligent design?

More silliness. If you're assuming the Christian God, you must also assume that God created man in His image with a certain amount of power to go along with it. Creative power has always been integral to humanity. There is, of course, the issue of what we "should" do with that power, but…again…different topic altogether.

Interesting idea about time travel…I'll give you that much. Part of the problem with time travel, obvious paradox aside, is that it is logically possible that we are only here because someone went back and seeded the Earth with life, i.e. time travel itself was predestined. It's also logically possible that an intelligent designer knew this already and set it up that way to achieve a certain end.

But, on the other hand, you have a problem with evidence. This is just plain solipsism. That's not something we can possibly know at this time, there is no evidence that such an event actually DID happen, and even if that turns out to be how it all happened, exactly how does that change things for us at present? This is all brain-in-a-vat kind of stuff and unremarkable.

ApertaVerbum wrote:
Is there a fundamental reason why humans are not God? We can create rocks and lift them after all.

Well…being physical beings we are not immortal and are bound within physical limits. That's why this is silly word-play. LOGICALLY things as we know them cannot violate their nature. Again, read up on the logical law of non-contradiction. It's unreasonable to expect God or anything/anyone else to be anything other than who or what they are. Water is wet. It's that simple. It's pointless to argue that God exist or act beyond His nature and character.

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sophisticated
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11 Feb 2015, 3:09 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Maybe you are too weak to see him. Have you thought about that.


Maybe you are too weak to admit that this life is all there is and are therefore to weak to think rationally. Have you thought about that


This life is all there is ? Is this one your many scientific facts ? :D



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11 Feb 2015, 3:11 am

badgerface wrote:
Image


You don't have absolute free-will.

You have free-will within the laws set by God.



Slashin8r
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11 Feb 2015, 3:52 pm

LOGICAL PROOF A GOD EXISTS:

This proof is so simple that a 2-year-old can follow it.

Science is all about finding answers to questions. A few of the big questions are, "Why do we exist?", "Where did matter come from?", "Why does gravity work the way it does?", etc.

Now, imagine that there was a scientific breakthrough and we answered one of those important questions. We only find ourselves asking more questions about the new answer, "Why that answer?".

Every time you find an answer, you will follow it with more questions to be solved. It is a never ending cycle of questions and answers and questions.

Where does it end? The only logical answer is GOD. Sooner or later, even science will find GOD.

More evidence:
Steven Hawking and other physicists have theorized that the universe was spontaneously created by laws such as gravity. They then theorized that these laws were created by the universe.

This means the creation of the universe works in a cycle:
Laws -> Spontaneous Creation -> Universe -> Laws -> Spontaneous Creation -> etc.

Where did the cycle start? The most logical spot to start the cycle is to define the Laws. How did the Laws get defined without a current Universe? The only logical answer is GOD.

Now, I don't speak of a Christian GOD or Greek GODs, or any GOD that we know of. It is far more logical that the GOD that does exist has never had any influence on our creation at all except for the fact that this GOD created the Laws in which everything is governed.



DentArthurDent
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11 Feb 2015, 4:55 pm

Here is evidence that even a two year old can follow.

We don't know stuff but this does not mean god is real.


For the more thoughtful among the believers on this thread the trouble you seem to be having stems from the use of common experience when thinking about the universe and what may lie beyond. Here is one thing I do agree with adhogday about science is not necessarily a dry unimaginative paradigm, if it were we would discover very little. Some of the greatest minds in the history of science were incredibly imaginative and used thought experiments to tease out the ideas, among them Einstein, Newton, Copernicus, Hawking etc. Without their ability to imagine they would not have come up with the discoveries that they did. Others in history have been imaginative the greats among the great Plato and Aristotle. What separates the former from the latter is the scientific method, more specifically testing thought experiments with experiments in nature.

This is also the difference between the religious who think they know the answer and those of us who say "we don't know". So many times in human history we have make broad and extraordinary claims based upon religious ideology that have not only turned out to be utter nonsense but have also held up the progress of human knowledge.

This is not evidence for or against god, it is simply saying that the universe and what lies beyond is more than likely stranger and far less intuitive than any of us could possibly imagine, and for me stating that "god did it" is placing a major stricture on what can be discovered, as well as being incredibly unimaginative.


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emax10000
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11 Feb 2015, 4:59 pm

Since I am very late to this discussion party, i was wondering if there is a consensus around here on the existence of G-d.

Do most of us here believe G-d exists or do we mostly believe he does not exist or is there a roughly even split between those who think He is real and those who think He is not?

And of course, this is a fundamentally different question from asking who is religious. Who can very much believe in G-d's existence without being religious in any way, shape or form.