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cathylynn
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05 Jul 2015, 11:16 pm

atheism is not a belief. it's a lack of belief.



aghogday
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05 Jul 2015, 11:45 pm

^^^

The power of prayer works just like the placebo effect.

And the cited study is based on secret prayer;

not acknowledged prayer, in positive social connection.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html

The number one source of human happiness is social connection
IN HUMAN EMOTIONAL connection In ways of 'oxytocin nurturing
neurohormones' and bonding, as well, through
mirror neurons and affective empathy.

Not all human beings share these attributes evenly
and that does influence the placebo effect as well;
as science shows that only about
a third of folks benefit
from the placebo effect.

And if one wants to go back to New Testament scripture to get this stuff all figured;
even if the words attributed to Jesus are not his; he makes it clear that his power to
heal does not work for people who do not heal themselves through the real emotions
of faith, belief, hope; which are precisely what is the healing effect and affect, per the
PLACEBO effect. Stress kills; yes, that is an established scientific fact now; fear and
anxiety is the father of stress; positive energy is just positive emotions and folks
who gather together and share the emotional contagion of love thrive as opposed
to psychopathic leaning minds who cannot drink the TRUE 'holy' water of human
emotions AKA heart expressed in cognitive empathy ways of words, song, dance,
etc. AKA SPIRIT; FOR FOLKS who have a soul; otherwise known as a mind
and body in balance with emotions properly working to connect to other
human beings to truly thrive as humanity; and not an approximation
of a zombie or a robot; who is separated from both their emotions
and their body; living in a head of textbook or science; instead
of REAL FLESH AND BLOOD human connecting life now.

My doctors still cannot explain how I healed myself of
19 medical disorders without their help; and can
now parallel leg press 930 LBS with my arms
raised in the air 25 times; like no male
on YouTube can do at any age;
or level of anabolic steroids;
as opposed to my level
of naturally occurring
testosterone at 221
off the chart of low,
of a 75 plus year old man.
However; my doctor works by medical science;
and not through the power of belief, faith and hope;
as well as the physical intelligence of TAI CHI like movement
for greater balance, agility, emotional regulation, sensory integration;
and greater cognitive executive functioning in focus and short term working
memory. But here's the deal; I have ZERO NEGATIVE EMOTIONS; ZERO STRESS;
AND THE Power of CHI, which is JUST a metaphor for precisely THAT; IN THE
WORLD OF FOLKS WHO HAVE not yet attained 'NEO' status; it is a world of thriving
that does not exist; when the placebo effect becomes all the time now with human
relative free will; GOD exists ALL THE TIME NOW as the FORCE of the INTERDEPENDENT
RELATIONSHIP OF ALL THAT IS in balance; Humans are one of the few animals that are
WHACKY ENOUGH to let illusions of a whacky cultural environment devolve them through
epigenetics in just one life time; as functionally disabled creatures who live their life out
of mind and body balance in an almost constant state of fight or flight stress; or dismiss
the flesh and blood necessity of human connection for online activities, instead; even
when common sense dictates that human connection for a social animal; any normal
social animal is what success in social survival is all about; GO by the rules of
Mother Nature AKA God or pay the consequences as that NATURE
IS MANIFEST AS HUMAN NATURE; most doctors do not have
a frigging clue about this; as their job is to prescribe
medicines and rarely do they get to the simple
root cause of the FACT THAT MOST
HUMANS JUST HAVE NO
MIND AND
BODY
BALANCE.

THAT'S too simple for most
doctors to even fathom; as of course
in life spent in mechanical cognition; neither
do they; and it shows in how they age at incredible
rates from human stress, as only an incredibly blind animal
for common sense would subject themselves to the stress of
what doctors endure everyday; until they ruin their own health along

the way.

But it pays well; and most humans are under the
illusion that money brings any happiness
at all; when the flesh
and blood really
hits the roads
of stress
in life.

God is NOW;
GOD is Nature;
It's as simple as that;
GOD is the Interconnecting
Interdependent Relationship
of all THAT IS; THE GREAtest
Human cultural and or religious
illusion is separation from THAT;
AND CONNECTION TO THAT takes
a life of excellence in practicing mind
and body balance; as freedom with GOD
is neither free or
FAIR;
AT LEAST IN ONE LIFETIME
OF EPIGENETICALLY DEVOLVING
FUNCTIONALLY DISABLED HUMAN
BEINGS WHO FRIGGING DON'T EVEN
UNDERTAND WHAT THEY OR
GOD EVEN
IS.

That is beyond sad
and stupidity; there
are no words to
describe it; other
than separation
from
GOD;
FOR THOSE who have a clue
of what that even is
per forgetting
what life
even
is
as
HUMAN BEING;
A CHILD OF GOD.


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adifferentname
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05 Jul 2015, 11:50 pm

Lintar wrote:
Oh come on 'adifferentname', is that the best you can do? Attribute motives to me that clearly don't exist? The source of my objective morals isn't a subjective belief, but an objective fact, and I explained why this was a fact within the post that followed which you (obviously) just ignored.


Do you mean the lengthy and off-topic lecture on the nature of reality in which you unironically described a magical, physics-defying table as being a valid component of a physical model? Declining to respond is not the same thing as ignoring. I disagree with the subjective conclusion which informs your belief that your morals are objective.

Quote:
Face it - God exists. Stop living in denial, and accept what is real.


Translation: "Agree with me. Accept my interpretation of reality. Only my subjective beliefs are right."

I'm a skeptic, not a denier. I remain unconvinced by the scant evidence you have proffered in support of your deity.

Quote:
I understand that atheists, and secularists in general, don't really like the idea of God for personal, emotional reasons, but there is no getting away from something that is as obvious as the ground beneath your feet.


It's quite possible some atheists have personal, emotional reasons for their atheism. Unless you're trying to characterise me as such, I'm not sure why you feel this is pertinent. If you are trying to characterise me as such, find another tree to bark up.

Quote:
I mean, it's bad enough that we now have people trying to, in all seriousness, tell us that something can come from literally nothing (S. Hawking, L. Krauss), and next they will be telling us that they don't believe we even have minds, but those people are clearly biased and have an agenda of their own.


So, in your opinion, it's a "bad" thing when prominent thinkers present hypotheses for the rest of us to consider?

Quote:
People should stop spouting Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and their ilk, and actually learn to think for themselves for a change.


Brought to you by the author of "Face it - God exists. Stop living in denial, and accept what is real."

Quote:
Look, it's rather obvious that you just don't care about an open and impartial examination of the reasons why people believe what they do.


Which is why, of the two of us, you're the one issuing edicts that the other party "Stop living in denial, and accept what is real."

Quote:
You can believe whatever you like


Actually no. I cannot believe what I like. That is not how belief works. It may be possible that I could, given enough time and motivation, condition myself to believe something that I previously did not believe - but I'm not sure what the point would be.

Quote:
you can believe we are all Martians for all I care, but just don't accuse those of us who don't agree with you of being evasive, because most of us do our best to respond to the, often inane, objections directed to us by the so-called 'brights' in our midst.


Implying that I accused you of being evasive on the grounds that you don't agree with me.Whereas I actually accused you of being evasive on the grounds that you deliberately provided a condescending response to a question which was not the one which was asked. That is to say, I provided evidence in support of my assertion that you evaded the question.

Quote:
There is one other thing I don't quite understand, and perhaps you - yes you, 'adifferentname' - can answer this for me, and that is: Why do so many self-proclaimed atheists become so upset whenever anyone so much as states their belief in the existence of God?


I cannot answer any questions on behalf of atheists who are upset by statements of belief in the existence of divine beings.

As for myself, I find belief to be a thoroughly fascinating subject. I am intrigued by many facets of belief, including the ubiquitous inability of believers to provide a logical rationale behind those things they claim belief in.

Another observation is that there are some believers who follow an ideology which apparently outright commands them to actively seek converts to their cause, yet who respond defensively or condescendingly to questions by genuinely open-minded skeptics. There's appears to be an internal conflict which I am convinced is caused by their own doubt in the strength of their faith.

Quote:
They become emotional, petty, abusive and sarcastic, and for no reason at all!


Like deliberately giving a patronising definition of "Western civilisation" when asked to describe what they meant by "Western civilisation is collapsing"?

Quote:
It's like they have an allergy to God, an allergy to something they insist cannot be true, or real. They then project their own feelings and beliefs onto their theistic opponents, and accuse them of being emotional. It's incredible.


It's also interesting that you bring up the subject of projection, considering some of the statements you've made regarding these unnamed atheists you've asked me to represent.

On consideration of your words, I am of the opinion that your own belief is far from firm. I hope you'll understand when I inform you that I decline your invitation to accept your god as real.



cathylynn
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06 Jul 2015, 12:03 am

aghogday wrote:
^^^

The power of prayer works just like the placebo effect.

And the cited study is based on secret prayer;

not acknowledged prayer, in positive social connection.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html

The number one source of human happiness is social connection
IN HUMAN EMOTIONAL connection In ways of 'oxytocin nurturing
neurohormones' and bonding, as well, through
mirror neurons and affective empathy.

Not all human beings share these attributes evenly
and that does influence the placebo effect as well;
as science shows that only about
a third of folks benefit
from the placebo effect.

And if one wants to go back to New Testament scripture to get this stuff all figured;
even if the words attributed to Jesus are not his; he makes it clear that his power to
heal does not work for people who do not heal themselves through the real emotions
of faith, belief, hope; which are precisely what is the healing effect and affect, per the
PLACEBO effect. Stress kills; yes, that is an established scientific fact now; fear and
anxiety is the father of stress; positive energy is just positive emotions and folks
who gather together and share the emotional contagion of love thrive as opposed
to psychopathic leaning minds who cannot drink the TRUE 'holy' water of human
emotions AKA heart expressed in cognitive empathy ways of words, song, dance,
etc. AKA SPIRIT; FOR FOLKS who have a soul; otherwise known as a mind
and body in balance with emotions properly working to connect to other
human beings to truly thrive as humanity; and not an approximation
of a zombie or a robot; who is separated from both their emotions
and their body; living in a head of textbook or science; instead
of REAL FLESH AND BLOOD human connecting life now.

My doctors still cannot explain how I healed myself of
19 medical disorders without their help; and can
now parallel leg press 930 LBS with my arms
raised in the air 25 times; like no male
on YouTube can do at any age;
or level of anabolic steroids;
as opposed to my level
of naturally occurring
testosterone at 221
off the chart of low,
of a 75 plus year old man.
However; my doctor works by medical science;
and not through the power of belief, faith and hope;
as well as the physical intelligence of TAI CHI like movement
for greater balance, agility, emotional regulation, sensory integration;
and greater cognitive executive functioning in focus and short term working
memory. But here's the deal; I have ZERO NEGATIVE EMOTIONS; ZERO STRESS;
AND THE Power of CHI, which is JUST a metaphor for precisely THAT; IN THE
WORLD OF FOLKS WHO HAVE not yet attained 'NEO' status; it is a world of thriving
that does not exist; when the placebo effect becomes all the time now with human
relative free will; GOD exists ALL THE TIME NOW as the FORCE of the INTERDEPENDENT
RELATIONSHIP OF ALL THAT IS in balance; Humans are one of the few animals that are
WHACKY ENOUGH to let illusions of a whacky cultural environment devolve them through
epigenetics in just one life time; as functionally disabled creatures who live their life out
of mind and body balance in an almost constant state of fight or flight stress; or dismiss
the flesh and blood necessity of human connection for online activities, instead; even
when common sense dictates that human connection for a social animal; any normal
social animal is what success in social survival is all about; GO by the rules of
Mother Nature AKA God or pay the consequences as that NATURE
IS MANIFEST AS HUMAN NATURE; most doctors do not have
a frigging clue about this; as their job is to prescribe
medicines and rarely do they get to the simple
root cause of the FACT THAT MOST
HUMANS JUST HAVE NO
MIND AND
BODY
BALANCE.

THAT'S too simple for most
doctors to even fathom; as of course
in life spent in mechanical cognition; neither
do they; and it shows in how they age at incredible
rates from human stress, as only an incredibly blind animal
for common sense would subject themselves to the stress of
what doctors endure everyday; until they ruin their own health along

the way.

But it pays well; and most humans are under the
illusion that money brings any happiness
at all; when the flesh
and blood really
hits the roads
of stress
in life.

God is NOW;
GOD is Nature;
It's as simple as that;
GOD is the Interconnecting
Interdependent Relationship
of all THAT IS; THE GREAtest
Human cultural and or religious
illusion is separation from THAT;
AND CONNECTION TO THAT takes
a life of excellence in practicing mind
and body balance; as freedom with GOD
is neither free or
FAIR;
AT LEAST IN ONE LIFETIME
OF EPIGENETICALLY DEVOLVING
FUNCTIONALLY DISABLED HUMAN
BEINGS WHO FRIGGING DON'T EVEN
UNDERTAND WHAT THEY OR
GOD EVEN
IS.

That is beyond sad
and stupidity; there
are no words to
describe it; other
than separation
from
GOD;
FOR THOSE who have a clue
of what that even is
per forgetting
what life
even
is
as
HUMAN BEING;
A CHILD OF GOD.


so you're saying that god is exactly as powerful as a sugar pill?



adifferentname
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06 Jul 2015, 12:09 am

cathylynn wrote:
so you're saying that god is exactly as powerful as a sugar pill?


Aghogday's 'god' is essentially Pantheistic.



aghogday
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06 Jul 2015, 12:24 am

cathylynn wrote:
aghogday wrote:
^^^

The power of prayer works just like the placebo effect.

And the cited study is based on secret prayer;

not acknowledged prayer, in positive social connection.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html

The number one source of human happiness is social connection
IN HUMAN EMOTIONAL connection In ways of 'oxytocin nurturing
neurohormones' and bonding, as well, through
mirror neurons and affective empathy.

Not all human beings share these attributes evenly
and that does influence the placebo effect as well;
as science shows that only about
a third of folks benefit
from the placebo effect.

And if one wants to go back to New Testament scripture to get this stuff all figured;
even if the words attributed to Jesus are not his; he makes it clear that his power to
heal does not work for people who do not heal themselves through the real emotions
of faith, belief, hope; which are precisely what is the healing effect and affect, per the
PLACEBO effect. Stress kills; yes, that is an established scientific fact now; fear and
anxiety is the father of stress; positive energy is just positive emotions and folks
who gather together and share the emotional contagion of love thrive as opposed
to psychopathic leaning minds who cannot drink the TRUE 'holy' water of human
emotions AKA heart expressed in cognitive empathy ways of words, song, dance,
etc. AKA SPIRIT; FOR FOLKS who have a soul; otherwise known as a mind
and body in balance with emotions properly working to connect to other
human beings to truly thrive as humanity; and not an approximation
of a zombie or a robot; who is separated from both their emotions
and their body; living in a head of textbook or science; instead
of REAL FLESH AND BLOOD human connecting life now.

My doctors still cannot explain how I healed myself of
19 medical disorders without their help; and can
now parallel leg press 930 LBS with my arms
raised in the air 25 times; like no male
on YouTube can do at any age;
or level of anabolic steroids;
as opposed to my level
of naturally occurring
testosterone at 221
off the chart of low,
of a 75 plus year old man.
However; my doctor works by medical science;
and not through the power of belief, faith and hope;
as well as the physical intelligence of TAI CHI like movement
for greater balance, agility, emotional regulation, sensory integration;
and greater cognitive executive functioning in focus and short term working
memory. But here's the deal; I have ZERO NEGATIVE EMOTIONS; ZERO STRESS;
AND THE Power of CHI, which is JUST a metaphor for precisely THAT; IN THE
WORLD OF FOLKS WHO HAVE not yet attained 'NEO' status; it is a world of thriving
that does not exist; when the placebo effect becomes all the time now with human
relative free will; GOD exists ALL THE TIME NOW as the FORCE of the INTERDEPENDENT
RELATIONSHIP OF ALL THAT IS in balance; Humans are one of the few animals that are
WHACKY ENOUGH to let illusions of a whacky cultural environment devolve them through
epigenetics in just one life time; as functionally disabled creatures who live their life out
of mind and body balance in an almost constant state of fight or flight stress; or dismiss
the flesh and blood necessity of human connection for online activities, instead; even
when common sense dictates that human connection for a social animal; any normal
social animal is what success in social survival is all about; GO by the rules of
Mother Nature AKA God or pay the consequences as that NATURE
IS MANIFEST AS HUMAN NATURE; most doctors do not have
a frigging clue about this; as their job is to prescribe
medicines and rarely do they get to the simple
root cause of the FACT THAT MOST
HUMANS JUST HAVE NO
MIND AND
BODY
BALANCE.

THAT'S too simple for most
doctors to even fathom; as of course
in life spent in mechanical cognition; neither
do they; and it shows in how they age at incredible
rates from human stress, as only an incredibly blind animal
for common sense would subject themselves to the stress of
what doctors endure everyday; until they ruin their own health along

the way.

But it pays well; and most humans are under the
illusion that money brings any happiness
at all; when the flesh
and blood really
hits the roads
of stress
in life.

God is NOW;
GOD is Nature;
It's as simple as that;
GOD is the Interconnecting
Interdependent Relationship
of all THAT IS; THE GREAtest
Human cultural and or religious
illusion is separation from THAT;
AND CONNECTION TO THAT takes
a life of excellence in practicing mind
and body balance; as freedom with GOD
is neither free or
FAIR;
AT LEAST IN ONE LIFETIME
OF EPIGENETICALLY DEVOLVING
FUNCTIONALLY DISABLED HUMAN
BEINGS WHO FRIGGING DON'T EVEN
UNDERTAND WHAT THEY OR
GOD EVEN
IS.

That is beyond sad
and stupidity; there
are no words to
describe it; other
than separation
from
GOD;
FOR THOSE who have a clue
of what that even is
per forgetting
what life
even
is
as
HUMAN BEING;
A CHILD OF GOD.


so you're saying that god is exactly as powerful as a sugar pill?


Only if you are suggesting that a sugar pill is the emotion of belief.

A sugar pill is a symbol for faith, hope, and belief; same as Yeshua or Jesus.

Emotions mean EMOTING HUMAN ACTION, friend; and faith, hope, and belief
are powerful human emotions that emote human action; but only for folks
who experience the spectrum of those emotions ranging from almost
nULL AND VOID to a full rainbow of the TERM LOVE.

Sadly or not; some folks

do not literally
or metaphorically
get that as religion
and science adequately
evidences as same; science
is just a scribe of GOD; and
the scientific method cannot repeat
the emotional experiment that even science
shows controls rational human decisions; to
understand human nature and use it to one's advantage
is to thrive; but yes, it takes a practice of mind and body balance
in lifelong excellence to get one there; and any real YOGI can show ya
how that's done friend; and even science reports their excellence in practicing
human relative free will; in ways of regulating emotions, and integrating senses
down to controlling body temperature and brain waves from Alpha to creative THETA.

THAT'S HOW I PRESS 930 LBS ON A PARALEL LEG PRESS, my friend, with my arms raised
in the air, twenty-five times with the ease of a butterfly singing a song of fluttering flight
on terrestrial land; machine with 20 loaded 45LB plates and 30LBS for the weight
lifting mechanism or not; and how I muster up the ease of focus and cognitive
executive functioning to write an epic free verse poetic expression of 11,135
words in speeds of typing up to 130 words a minute with the assistance
of my natural occurring reading levels of 10 to 15 times faster than
the average human being; the difference with me and
the Jesus of the Old TESTAMENT
IS I CAN PROVE
IT, BABY;
AS science
and technology
provides the empirical
tools to document all
real human miracles,
as they happen in
real time now.

Anyway; if no other human
being ever does what I can do,
baby; it is simply 'cause they
never believe they can
and never just
do it;
like
me and
Nike just does
with the help of GOD;
as the Nature of GOD
in much greater human
potential exists for those
who frigging understand
and use their human nature
to their advantage in just doing it NOW..:)


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aghogday
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06 Jul 2015, 12:33 am

adifferentname wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
so you're saying that god is exactly as powerful as a sugar pill?


Aghogday's 'god' is essentially Pantheistic.


YES, essentially; but one will have to add some
metaphysical flavor through literal
metaphors of the quantum
human mind and body
unleashed and released
in balance to come
close to get to the
place in state
of mind AND
BODY BALANCE;
I live friend; ALWAYS NOW

It is a state of mind and body within;
not something anyone can
purchase with dollars
or grades in school.

And truly nothing new;
eastern philosophies
have been reaping
the benefits of mind
and body balance in artful
activities for thousands
of years in monasteries;
but no; no lessons for
me; I find all my answers
within by looking to nature;
above so below; inside outside;
all around; totally innate instinctual
and intuitive; in an ongoing practice
of human excellence; and that is
what I mean by the metaphor
for Quantum human mind
and body balance
unleashed and
released; religions
TRULY JUST do a big
talk; but no action
of practice to do
much of
anything
but TALK.

Prayer is cool;
but action is where
the big RESULTS COME..:)


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06 Jul 2015, 2:00 am

cathylynn wrote:
atheism is not a belief. it's a lack of belief.
Atheism is a belief system that is every bit as much a superstitious religion as voodoo. It has its own esoterica, prophets and high priests along with a plethora of irrational prejudices that have become unassailable dogma needing no justification other than that they suit the ideology.



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06 Jul 2015, 2:37 am

adifferentname wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
All necessary attributes are important because they are what makes a thing what it is. Even one at a time seems to be more than you can comprehend.


And yet you've only provided one attribute - which is a logical impossibility within the model you put forward.

As for your petty slur: we're both fully aware that the only reason you haven't provided any further parameters for your "First Cause" is because any claim to knowledge beyond what is physically observable can be readily dismissed for the fantasy it is.
The First Cause is defined simply as the Cause that is not caused. The Cause that always was what It is; transcendent, independent and not contingent upon anything but Itself.
Odd wrote:
Our First Cause is "pure act" and not a series of results of proximate or distal secondary causes. We are talking about the ultimate cause of physical systems which cannot cause themselves.

N wrote:
And what's your specific evidence for the specific existence of anything outside a physical system?
All of metaphysics; things like life, intellect, will, truth, virtue, consciousness, etc. etc.
Odd wrote:
My contention is that "established scientific theory" is not science at all since it is not based on observation and logic. It is a fantastic invention of runaway egos.

! wrote:
In that case, let's see your peer-reviewed disputation of existing scientific theory.
A not-very-clever rhetorical dodge. We all know that the "peer review" system is a propagation tool for your ideology. Anything not convenient to your ideology will not be published by the "Establishment" publicity machine.
Odd wrote:
Amateurs mistake flawed reason based on illogical premises for logic. Backwards, or circular reasoning is not logic or logical. Logic is about non-contradiction. Any line of reasoning based on a self-contradictory premise is absurd... i.e. it is not logical no matter how popular the superstition is or becomes.

! wrote:
Correct. Just like your still under-defined "First Cause" which is capable of acting without changing.

Try to remember, your 'logical' assertions of the properties of this "First Cause" were based on 'observations' within a physical realm. By limiting your evidence to the physically observable, you set the boundaries for your "First Cause". Or do you claim to know the properties of anything that exists beyond space-time?

Face it. You lack the courage of your convictions to even give a name to your "First Cause", let alone provide the evidence for your claimed knowledge of the properties of hypothetical realms of existence and the beings therein.
There are lots of things we know exist without being able to physically "see" them. You know they exist by what they do.



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06 Jul 2015, 3:48 am

Oldavid wrote:
The First Cause is defined simply as the Cause that is not caused. The Cause that always was what It is; transcendent, independent and not contingent upon anything but Itself.


So your "First Cause" is nothing more than a convoluted way of saying "I don't know". Why not just say "I don't know" rather than inventing properties for a hypothetical non-physical entity?

Quote:
Quote:
And what's your specific evidence for the specific existence of anything outside a physical system?
All of metaphysics; things like life, intellect, will, truth, virtue, consciousness, etc. etc.


These are all aspects of physical reality.

Odd wrote:
A not-very-clever rhetorical dodge. We all know that the "peer review" system is a propagation tool for your ideology. Anything not convenient to your ideology will not be published by the "Establishment" publicity machine.


Why would one dodge an unsubstantiated assertion? One need do no more than swat it aside. I'd be fascinated to hear more about my "ideology". If anything, skepticism is the opposite of an ideology.

A common trait in ideologues is that they cannot conceive that others are not similarly dedicated to their dogma, and this certainly seems the case with yourself.

Another trait common to ideologues is that they tend not to ask any questions, yet make a great many pronouncements. Can you guess what your ratio of questions asked to assertions made has been in this thread?

And of course, there are the attempted provocations, such as clumsy attempts to patronise in a bid to preemptively shut down or derail opposition - which brings us to:

Quote:
There are lots of things we know exist without being able to physically "see" them. You know they exist by what they do.


delphinum natara doces



Oldavid
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06 Jul 2015, 4:13 am

adifferentname wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
The First Cause is defined simply as the Cause that is not caused. The Cause that always was what It is; transcendent, independent and not contingent upon anything but Itself.


So your "First Cause" is nothing more than a convoluted way of saying "I don't know". Why not just say "I don't know" rather than inventing properties for a hypothetical non-physical entity?
Not deserving comment.

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And what's your specific evidence for the specific existence of anything outside a physical system?
All of metaphysics; things like life, intellect, will, truth, virtue, consciousness, etc. etc.

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These are all aspects of physical reality.
Then you will send me a little jar full of each so that I can do physical experiments on them?
Odd wrote:
A not-very-clever rhetorical dodge. We all know that the "peer review" system is a propagation tool for your ideology. Anything not convenient to your ideology will not be published by the "Establishment" publicity machine.

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Why would one dodge an unsubstantiated assertion? One need do no more than swat it aside. I'd be fascinated to hear more about my "ideology". If anything, skepticism is the opposite of an ideology.
You are not the least bit sceptical of atheist dogma... even though it will not stand any reasonable observational or logical scrutiny.
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A common trait in ideologues is that they cannot conceive that others are not similarly dedicated to their dogma, and this certainly seems the case with yourself.
I am not proposing any dogma; just simple facts of observation and logic available to anyone.
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Another trait common to ideologues is that they tend not to ask any questions, yet make a great many pronouncements. Can you guess what your ratio of questions asked to assertions made has been in this thread?

And of course, there are the attempted provocations, such as clumsy attempts to patronise in a bid to preemptively shut down or derail opposition - which brings us to:

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There are lots of things we know exist without being able to physically "see" them. You know they exist by what they do.
Oh? What questions should I ask?



adifferentname
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06 Jul 2015, 5:01 am

Oldavid wrote:
Not deserving comment.


Closer, but you're not quite there yet.

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Then you will send me a little jar full of each so that I can do physical experiments on them?


Would you also like a jar of wind, a bottle of electricity or a box full of clouds? How about a beaker of time, a pint of sound or a thimble full of gravity?

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You are not the least bit sceptical of atheist dogma... even though it will not stand any reasonable observational or logical scrutiny.


Tell me, if you will, who or what constitutes the authority of incontrovertible truth for atheists?

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I am not proposing any dogma; just simple facts of observation and logic available to anyone.


Your "facts" are subjective opinions for which you claim your "First Cause" is the incontrovertible authority.

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Oh? What questions should I ask?


What questions do you think you should ask?



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06 Jul 2015, 5:40 am

adifferentname wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Quote:
Then you will send me a little jar full of each so that I can do physical experiments on them?

Would you also like a jar of wind, a bottle of electricity or a box full of clouds? How about a beaker of time, a pint of sound or a thimble full of gravity?
Yes please! All of the above.
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You are not the least bit sceptical of atheist dogma... even though it will not stand any reasonable observational or logical scrutiny.

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Tell me, if you will, who or what constitutes the authority of incontrovertible truth for atheists?
I get the impression that you are trying to convince me that you are.
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I am not proposing any dogma; just simple facts of observation and logic available to anyone.

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Your "facts" are subjective opinions for which you claim your "First Cause" is the incontrovertible authority.
Nope! I am claiming that objective observations and logic are the "incontrovertible authority".
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Oh? What questions should I ask?

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What questions do you think you should ask?
None at all.



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06 Jul 2015, 7:42 am

I didn't get a chance to edit the quotey thingy before the time ran out. But I guess that anyone of moderate ability will catch on to what it's about.



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06 Jul 2015, 8:06 am

Oldavid wrote:
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Tell me, if you will, who or what constitutes the authority of incontrovertible truth for atheists?
I get the impression that you are trying to convince me that you are.


So you're incapable of pointing to a commonly accepted authority of incontrovertible truth for atheists, yet you claim atheism is dogmatic.

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Nope! I am claiming that objective observations and logic are the "incontrovertible authority".


Objective observations? One's perspective is inescapable. The closest we can get to objectivity is intersubjectivity.

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What questions do you think you should ask?
None at all.


I think that concludes our interaction. I have no desire to administer medicine to the dead.



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06 Jul 2015, 8:16 am

adifferentname wrote:
I cannot answer any questions on behalf of atheists who are upset by statements of belief in the existence of divine beings.

As for myself, I find belief to be a thoroughly fascinating subject. I am intrigued by many facets of belief, including the ubiquitous inability of believers to provide a logical rationale behind those things they claim belief in.

Another observation is that there are some believers who follow an ideology which apparently outright commands them to actively seek converts to their cause, yet who respond defensively or condescendingly to questions by genuinely open-minded skeptics. There's appears to be an internal conflict which I am convinced is caused by their own doubt in the strength of their faith.
I have never, ever come across an "open minded sceptic". I think that the two are mutually exclusive.
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I am intrigued by many facets of belief, including the ubiquitous inability of believers to provide a logical rationale behind those things they claim belief in.
Says one who consistently only claims "Play School" picture books and endlessly repeated assertions as a "logical rationale" for the things they believe in.

Logic says that "a thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist"... I will be most interested to see you work that into the strength of your faith.