Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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GnosticBishop
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15 Jun 2015, 12:06 pm

blauSamstag wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

as i understand it, God's whole plan revolved around allowing Adam & Eve to betray him and fall from grace.

Sort of manipulative and sadistic if you ask me.

Indeed.

That is the result od literal reading.

Strange then that literalist Christians do not see that.

Regards
DL

I've heard a lot of rhetoric about how this was required for salvation but I don't buy it.

Unless it's allegory about what is broken in human brains that makes us want all this complexity and stimulation while, say, dolphins are clearly having a ball with big brains and not all that much of what we'd call knowledge.

We could have been stupid and happy but we're not? if that's the case, I don't think it has anything to do with sex and reproduction.

maybe "original sin" is just something the catholics made up?

Even so, god could have created man with the capacity for knowledge and foregone all this betrayal and fall from grace nonsense.

To the Jews who wrote Eden, God did.

They do not have an Original Sin concept and saw Eden as man's elevation and not the fll that Christianity latter placed on it.

I see Christianity as quite an immoral creed as compared to what the earlier Jews and Gnostic Christians had.

If you have a spiritual itch to scratch, I suggest investigating Jewry of better yet, Gnostic Christianity.

Regards
DL

GnosticBishop
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15 Jun 2015, 12:10 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I believe Max Hiendel definitively answered this one.

We didn't have separate identities or really much self-awareness prior to involving into matter. .

Sigh.

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D

GnosticBishop
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15 Jun 2015, 12:16 pm

Krabo wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

(...)Are you sinning when you seek knowledge and becoming more like God?(...)

By seeking knowledge one doesn't become more like God simply because God need not seek anything. By knowing more one may be said to be a fraction of an inch closer to God, but because God's knowledge is in earthly terms infinite, there is no danger of stepping over any alleged forbidden line. Jesus encouraged people to become like him, so why not also in this respect. Asymptotically, never reaching the divine level.

From time immemorial, scholarly career has been highly esteemed among Judaism, not necessarily so among Christianity. But after the Catholic Church got over the Galileo incident, they too have promoted earthly, scientific learning.

It is no sin.

I agree but the church never mentions that God was unjust in punishing A & E or doing what the church now support.

That is clearly a double moral standard where they forgive God for doing what they would condemn a man for doing.

That is the problem of idol worship.

Regards
DL

nerdygirl
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20 Jun 2015, 6:08 am

GnosticBishop wrote:

nerdygirl wrote:

[

In the image of God as in being able to reason and be creative. .

I like that you agree that pride can be quite good.

To be creative and be able to reason, one must have knowledge of good and evil or one might create something quite evil. Right?

To even have a desire to create, one must know which variables to choose from and which are good for the creation or evil.

That is why in my post to you above I asked you to come up with a few things where good and evil do not apply.

You cannot desire till you know what the choices are.

Regards
DL

I have not been able to think through all your questions as yet - busy week, including my daughter being sick.

But, I have a response to these.

First, animals make choices all the time and they never partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Animals must make choices about what to eat and where to live. Where does this knowledge come from? It is inborn.

I live in the woods, so there are a lot of birds. I also own goats and chickens and a dog and cats. It is interesting to me that when we find small birds nests (don't know what variety of bird), the twigs are on the outside of the nest, while the interior of the nest is lined with goat and dog fur and downy chicken feathers. The exterior of the nest is designed for structure, and the interior of the nest is designed to be soft and warm. Each species of bird will design a nest differently which is *best suited* for their needs.

Is the making of a nest "creative" in the way that you are using the term? The birds are most definitely making choices to use one material over another and in different parts of the nest. To say that eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was necessary in order to make choices is just incorrect. I will assert again that this was not a tree of ALL knowledge. Animals have necessary knowledge without having eaten from the tree.

Also, if you are correct that one cannot desire without first knowing what the choices are, I will say that Adam and Eve *were* given the choice. They could eat of the Tree or not. They desired that which they should not have. The serpent also, through tempting them, increased their desire by providing a choice - Do you want to be like God (yes or no?) The fact that they had these choices *before* eating of the Tree also shows that they had the ability to reason *before* eating of the Tree. They reasoned and made the choice to eat the fruit.

aghogday
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20 Jun 2015, 7:40 pm

^^^
Yep, the Tree of Life is a metaphor for the gifts of innate instinct and intuition
that all animals and even so-called lower organisms receive directly from GOD;
as all equally important children of GOD; where children are metaphor for all
of creation as is now as the sentience of GOD in 'eyes and ears' of all of us.

The Tree of Knowledge is just the metaphor for what humans create with
abstract written language starting with scratching angles in the sand
copying imaginary and creative connections of angles of stars
in sky, next thing ya know; ya got sanskrit alphabet, words
paragraphs, and recorded written ways of collective human
abstract intelligence; and complex cultures starting with
Agriculture, then Industrialization, and now the
Information Technology Age where the Tree
of knowledge that is human made is
convoluted to the point where some
folks don't even feel like they are living
on a right planet anymore; and well, in large
they are not; as we are separated now outside
of the Tree of Life gifted to us by all natural God;
by a culture that is so far removed from the gifts
of all natural innate instinct and intuition that most
humans never find the heaven of now that the gnostic
so-called Jesus promised is there for those who escape
the tree of knowledge and get back to natural gift of the
tree of life that lives inside us, outside us, above, so below
and all around us. Truly it's as simple as that for animals in
the real feeling of innate instinct and intuition that eat of the
TREE OF LIFE. I LIVE IN HEAVEN ALL THE TIME NOW; as
I live wild and free again like the other free children of GOD who are
much smarter than the typical sheep led by cultural illusions producing
much human suffering and misery around the part of the world that is hell
now; instead of the heaven of always now that I live in as escape from the
Wrong Planet NOW that starts with a full cultural plate, almost from birth NOW.

Truly its simple; but as hard for a person who is acclimatized to culture to escape
as the largest camel in the tiniest hole of needle almost imaginable; It takes me
life threatening illness without effective use of my eyes and ears; to find the
same power of GOD in me before I become poisoned by the snake of the
tree of knowledge AKA all things associated with modern human
cultures more or less; some things do bring comfort out of
mechanical cognition but truly the real gift of happiness
from GOD are all things associated with social cognition;
from physical intelligence to emotional intelligence;
to regulating emotions and senses; to increasing
focus and short term working memory; to finALLy
live in balance with our nature and Mother Nature
AKA GOD in a practice of animal homeostasis
where the illusion of past and present goes
away and we once again live like our fellow
animals in the REAL PRESENT OF NOW;
AND IT IS CRYSTAL clear for those who
have the 'right-brain interpreting eyes'
and 'ear's to see this truth in the
GNOSTIC GOSPEL OF THOMAS;
although to be clear it is
far from perfect as it
suggests folks
should rebel
and hate
their parents
and this way of being
must be enforced by starting
wars; but the evidence of that is
provided here for anyone who can
understand the metaphors of the Gnostic
Gospel of Thomas with RIGHT- BRAIN thinking
mind as metaphor for the interpreting visual
thinking mind of human being capable
of imagination and creativity, as well
as interpreting visual symbolism
that sadly some humans are
NOT INNATELY able TO DO,
per factors like brain lesions
on the right hemisphere of the
brain or environmental factors that
science doesn't have good handle on
to better understand more completely the
functional disabilities of the human mind;
in my opinion most of it is environmental and
can simply be remedied with 'right-brain' leaning
activities like dance, music, and all stuff associated
with getting out of the box and creating something new
that no one has ever done before; rarely does one come
across a truly creative person who does not believe in GOD,
as true creativity is totally innate instinctual and intuitive
not unlike the PROPHETS OF OLD WHO ARE the prophets
of new; as the Beatles are the new prophets for one
example who art from the creative side of mind
where rational thinking is not required at all;
the flow is THE FLOW OF GOD; to be in this
creative theta wave state of mind is
to FLOW WITH GOD AS 'CREATIVE
EYES' OF GOD; SO YEAH, LIKE
the great band 'Rush' says
the word of the prophets
written on the studio
walls of concert
halls..
God is an 'EEO' employer';
GOD doesn't 'give a crap'
about the tree of knowledge;
whether it comes in a science
book or big black book that
subjugates and controls humans
beings away from the feral freedom
that GOD gifts humans as 'goats'
rather than
'sheep';
I am a Goat.
But yes; I am
a sheep in the past as well;
Goat is 'heavenly fun' as there is
NO judgement for that other than
the 'eyes' of GOD; that lives inside
us for those who touch the eyes
of GOD as Instruments
of GOD one and
SAME.

AND YES, believe it or not;
I 'speak' with 'eyes of GOD';
and the words flow from
'fingertips of GOD'
AS well;
same as old;
new as
old;
the 'real
'new age'
is the
TREE OF
LIFE;
totAlly free
from head
to toe
to
i.

No it's no a sin to seek knowledge
but to get to addicted to human
cultures and abstract knowledge
can be a beyond sad way to
get separated from GOD;
but that's wHere relative
human free will comes
to play for those
who find
GOD
within to free themselves
from the eye of culture
that are the eyes of
the tree of
knowledge;
I choose life
over knowledge;
I am free with GOD
co-creating in that
way as totally free..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm

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AlexandertheSolitary
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24 Jun 2015, 10:42 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

nerdygirl wrote:

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Prior to the eating of the apple by Eve, Adam and Eve lived like wild animals in this beautiful wilderness called Eden. They weren't really human, they were animal-like, and God wanted to keep them that way because it seemed to cause them less suffering to exist in that state of mind. So He forbid them be knowledgeable of anything but that way of existing because he wanted them to stay happy and never suffer. He thought that was the best way to be.

According to God, the first sin was when Eve was tempted by the Serpent, or dragon. She became knowledgeable afterward and awareness followed. No longer was she like a wild animal. She began to resemble a human being with human needs like shelter and agriculture. She became aware of her body and felt it must be covered when before, it didn't matter. Nakedness didn't seem unnatural prior to becoming knowledgeable. She no longer experienced the contented state of mind. Instead she was always discontented and this discontent spread to Adam as well and they both became sad humans at this point.

It can be argued the Bible itself is a form of knowledge and just by reading it, one becomes knowledgeable, so how can knowledge be a sin?

Before the Fall, Adam & Eve were not just like animals. According to Genesis 1:26-28, they were already superior to the animals, given the work of subduing the earth and having dominion over the animals.

26 Then God said, “Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (ESV)

The sin was not the pursuit of knowledge, though in this instance the sin involved a pursuit of knowledge. The sin was the attempted usurping of God's authority. This was done by the serpent (and, really, started in Heaven before Lucifer was banished) and continued by Eve, then Adam and on to today. The desire to "become like God" indicated a dissatisfaction they had of being submissive creatures before their Creator. The root of all sin is pride.

We do know that, at one time, humans were very much at the mercy of the animals as well as certain animals being at the mercy of humans so they did not have dominion over all the animals, only some of them. For instance, bears, wolves, tigers, and other predators can easily kill an unarmed human. All it takes is one snake bite from a venomous adder, which I am sure is why a serpent appears in the story. They are quite stealthy and sneaky, for the most part, unless they rattle, which not all of them do, so they can be quite deadly. Is it true we really have dominion over the animals? Only if we have a weapon and can administer a lethal blow before the animal does so to us first. It's actually our knowledge that has allowed this to happen. Being in a mental state that does not know means not having weapons to protect oneself because the intelligence either doesn't exist to invent them or the ability to do it is shunned because God said not to.

The way I interpreted the creation story is very much like how humans have advanced. We have come form the wilderness into civilization. We have gone from hunter/gatherer societies to agricultural based civilizations. You must have more knowledge to grow crops than to hunt and gather. So you see the application of knowledge has happened alongside civilization. Where ever there's civilizations, there's always a period of striving, a plateau, then a decline. It's happened time and time again so it would look like God were dooming it and one conclusion is it's because of all the knowledge the ruling class has.

And it might be true, Adam and Eve disobeyed God, but God specifically said not to eat from the tree of knowledge. He could of ordered them not to do any number of things but it was that in particular he told them not to do so this cannot be ignored. It's not just they disobeyed, it's they became aware as well because, although awareness is helpful in many ways, it hurts too. For instance, suppose someone you trusted plotted against you and you never found out. The plot never materialized and whomever was plotting suddenly was stricken with a guilty conscience about plotting evil against a friend. If you never found this out, you would continue on thinking good thoughts about this friend. You would still trust them, and if they feel bad about it, never actually did it and swore never do anything and to be a true friend from then on out, there would be no harm done despite the fact at one time they were thinking about doing something. If you found out, even if you know they feel bad and would never do it, you might still be a bit leery and mistrustful. You wouldn't feel as great about having them as a friend. Becoming aware of the plot, even though it never happened, would leave you feeling shaken and betrayed. At least it would me. It's this idea about awareness in the tree of knowledge. It can be good but it can also cause harm.

Mankind only had "dominion" after Adam and Eve ate "fruit" from the tree of knowledge. Before they weren't as civilized, they stayed in one area, the Garden of Eden. Then viola, the fruit was eaten, suddenly they are able to create advanced weapons, shoes for their feet, clothing that protected their skin, they knew about seasons, calendars and how to grow crops, they figured out how to build fortresses, pyramids, marble castles, great walls. The story is a metaphor for how humans went from being very simple to more complex.

Humans do, however have the potential to dominate animals that are physically more than a match for any individual human being with neither the knowledge to tame nor weapons to defend or control. As a result we also have greater responsibility; as we advance we can change our surroundings for better and for worse. The situation in Eden is different to the wilderness scenario. Not only is it a terrestrial paradise, but prior to fall there is no shame, because there is no knowledge of good and evil. Now, in a fallen world, absence of shame and of knowledge of good and evil is not sinless bliss, but at least amoral (ignorant of morality, rather than merely defiant of it or immoral) evil if not actual the congenital anomalous mental condition of psychopathy. This would not have been the case in Eden, however one understands the early Genesis chapters. This is also why there were not at this point many instructions - other than the presumably not too onerous, and indeed decidedly pleasurable command to be fruitful and multiply. In a Golden Age/Eden/Utopia type scenario and indeed again in a second Golden Age or New Jerusalem scenario, there is no need for laws and rules; in a fallen world on the other hand, absence of laws and rules is not freedom, but chaos and anarchy and also, perhaps paradoxically, oppression and tyranny, as power in the absence of law goes to either those who are physically stronger, more attractive, or with the sufficient combination of superior intellect and inferior compassion with ruthless ambition to manipulate their fellow human beings into doing their bidding (later in human history other factors come into play, such as weapons technology, size and discipline of armies, resources, religious and political influence, but that is well beyond the hunter gatherer in the wilderness scenario you mention, though the roots may be seen there). So however flawed systems of law may be, they still surve a purpose of protecting the weak from the strong, and of encouraging civilization.

So the initial command was intended to protect humans from sin and suffering (the only other command at that point was a originally a joyous and natural duty; there have been different distortions of that command since) but if this seems paternalistic and infantilising to you, you might be interested to know that in the Orthodox Christian tradition there is the concept that had they been obedient knowledge would have been given any way. Besides, God has been able to bring greater good and knowledge out of the tragedy of Eden, and as you note the pursuit of knowledge has brought much good. This is my attempt to provide part of an answer to this question, based on my understanding of the Scriptures at this present time.

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AlexandertheSolitary
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24 Jun 2015, 10:55 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:

nerdygirl wrote:

[

In the image of God as in being able to reason and be creative. .

Thank you for your considered and detailed thoughts here. But surely there is a difference between sinful arrogance and healthy pride in others and to some extent enjoyment of one's own use or reason and learning, and satisfaction in work well done? Likewise, the nature of the choices that animals are capable of and human moral choices differ considerably surely.

Sinful pride or hubris begins with the inward turn, thinking more of one's own perfection than of either one's Creator or fellow created beings, and at its most extreme ends in a callous and shameless indifference to even one's own good, let alone that of others, in a pathetic clinging to an illusion of power at any cost to one's self or to others.

Also, the fruit was not simply the Tree of Knowledge but the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Reason was perfectly present prior to the fall, there was a command not to eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil at least in part to protect humans, as well as the wider creation. Afterwards, human reason and emotions are alike disordered to varying extents. This is not to say that human reason and will cannot lead to a degree of wisdom and righteousness, but if our hearts are not rightly oriented towards God, our fellow humans and the rest of Creation then pride and ambition can lead to such wisdom and virtue as we have degenerating into cunning and self-righteousness.

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nerdygirl
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25 Jun 2015, 4:19 am

AlexandertheSolitary wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

nerdygirl wrote:

[

In the image of God as in being able to reason and be creative. .

In addition, Adam showed wisdom and reason and dominion over the animals before the Fall, as he was given responsibility to name all the animals.

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25 Jun 2015, 4:22 am

cathylynn wrote:

i sure as heck hope it's not a sin. i think of it as a virtue. it's my second most important reason for living, right after making myself and others happy.

It isn't. The Bible isn't as hard-assed about a lot of the things addressed as some people think.

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GnosticBishop
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26 Jun 2015, 6:55 pm

nerdygirl wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

nerdygirl wrote:

[

In the image of God as in being able to reason and be creative. .

"Do you want to be like God (yes or no?)"

The point is that they would not be able to answer that question as they would not know if being like God was goo or evil.

God and what he is would be a part of what the tree of knowledge held and A & E had no idea of anything that was a part of that tree or anything else which was good or evil.

Regards
DL

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26 Jun 2015, 7:07 pm

AlexandertheSolitary wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

nerdygirl wrote:

[

In the image of God as in being able to reason and be creative. .

"Reason was perfectly present prior to the fall,".

Not when those who are old enough to reproduce and are too stupid to recognize they are naked.

To say there is much of any reasoning in a myth that has Satan and a talking serpent is rather droll.

Mind you, if you do not read scriptures literally, they can hold a lot of wisdom.

Read them literally and you see a fall where man's elevation was.

Ask any Jew.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

Regards
DL

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26 Jun 2015, 7:13 pm

AlexandertheSolitary wrote:

[

Sinful pride or hubris begins with the inward turn, thinking more of one's own perfection than of either one's Creator or fellow created beings, and at its most extreme ends in a callous and shameless indifference to even one's own good, let alone that of others, in a pathetic clinging to an illusion of power at any cost to one's self or to others.
.

What if thinking more of one's own perfection than of either one's Creator or fellow created beings, is well founded?

Would that not just be being honest if it is true?

As an example. Look at the story of Kind David where God punishes and tortures his baby for 6 days before finally killing it.

Your morals are likely better than God's and you would likely never torture a baby.

Should you not take pride in that?

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DL

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26 Jun 2015, 7:18 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

cathylynn wrote:

i sure as heck hope it's not a sin. i think of it as a virtue. it's my second most important reason for living, right after making myself and others happy.

It isn't. The Bible isn't as hard-assed about a lot of the things addressed as some people think.

True, yet what is addressed has created a homophobic and misogynous religion full of people who do not care about those injustices.

Regards
DL

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26 Jun 2015, 7:21 pm

nerdygirl wrote:

[

In addition, Adam showed wisdom and reason and dominion over the animals before the Fall, as he was given responsibility to name all the animals.

He could not have been wise at all because his first command was to reproducece yet he was too stupid to do so.

In fact e could not till after he ate of the tree of knowledge.

So was he wise without knowledge or stupid without knowledge?

You cannot have it both ways unless you are a deluded Christian.

Regards
DL

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