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appletheclown
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15 Mar 2015, 10:04 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
God does exist, we know this because we wouldn't be here without him.


evidence please

Evidence of matter and energy being its own cause please.


Plenty out there, start reading up on particle physics. And anyhow how is this even relevant. We have no knowledge what is outside this universe. The only people who seem to think they do are the religious who somehow think they can have a free pass with an uncaused first cause.

I said evidence, not something I'd have to invest my life in to supposedly understand.
When science thinks it has a free pass to completely guess on things they can't possibly understand, it becomes irrelevant to try and make an effort to prove God.
When a stranger asks a you how to get to the hospital, you don't tell them get a map do you?
No, you give them directions, or at least lead them in the right direction by telling them who would know and how to get a hold of them.
I could say the same thing, read the bible, but we both know you find that as ridiculous as I find string theory ridiculous.


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15 Mar 2015, 10:06 pm

@ sophisticated Agreed, but of the little knowledge we have, NON was not brought to us via religious doctrine.


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15 Mar 2015, 10:18 pm

appletheclown wrote:
I said evidence, not something I'd have to invest my life in to supposedly understand.
When science thinks it has a free pass to completely guess on things they can't possibly understand, it becomes irrelevant to try and make an effort to prove God.
When a stranger asks a you how to get to the hospital, you don't tell them get a map do you?
No, you give them directions, or at least lead them in the right direction by telling them who would know and how to get a hold of them.
I could say the same thing, read the bible, but we both know you find that as ridiculous as I find string theory ridiculous.


:lol: Thankyou I am literally laughing aloud. So because you dont understand something, then neither can anyone else.

What takes a lifetime to study is not the same as the results. There are a large amount of books which present the results of many peoples lifetimes of research, all you need to do is pick them up and LEARN.

Regarding your map analogy, yes I have suggested people get a map, and I have also gone to my car and grabbed my own. Sometimes directions are far too complicated to be communicated in a few sentences. Particle physics is such a case, go grab a book and learn. I will admit getting your head around particle physics is not easy, after all it goes against most of our prejudices regarding what we think of as common sense, but it is worth the effort, once you get a rough handle on it the discoveries are simply awe inspiring. Why the preoccupation with string theory, I have never once suggested it, most scientists disregard it, and the scientific method has nothing to do with it

Oh and in case you were wondering I have read the bible, very interesting collection of short stories I must say. I have heard some people actually believe them, cant for the life of me understand why.


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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 15 Mar 2015, 10:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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15 Mar 2015, 10:19 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
@ sophisticated Agreed, but of the little knowledge we have, NON was not brought to us via religious doctrine.


It was brought to us by God.

Since it is God that gave us the ability to understand nature.



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15 Mar 2015, 10:26 pm

Of course he did, now don't forget to put your christmas stocking out, otherwise santa wont give you any presents


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15 Mar 2015, 10:27 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
I will admit getting your head around particle physics is not easy, after all it goes against most of our prejudices regarding what we think of as common sense, but it is worth the effort, once you get a rough handle on it the discoveries are simply awe inspiring.

Oh and in case you were wondering I have read the bible, very interesting collection of short stories I must say. I have heard some people actually believe them, cant for the life of me understand why.

If you understand particle physics so much, I'd rather you teach me than a book I have to buy. Come on, tell me what you know.


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15 Mar 2015, 10:30 pm

Pathetic.

But to help you here are some books you may find helpful

Lawrence M Krauss "A Universe from nothing"

Stephen Hawking "a brief history of time"

Stephen Hawing "Grand Design"

Brian Cox and Jeffrey Foreshaw "Why does E=MC2 and why should we care"

Then I would look at the great courses series ( I listen to audio books) Literally hundreds of hours of lectures on the subject. Listen to some, get a grasp on the subject then we can discuss it


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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 15 Mar 2015, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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15 Mar 2015, 10:33 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Pathetic.

Really? I'm genuinely asking you to illuminate my world to your way of thinking and that is all you have to say?
I was actually hoping to learn something. It would mean a lot to me if I understood your beliefs.


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15 Mar 2015, 10:43 pm

appletheclown wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Pathetic.

Really? I'm genuinely asking you to illuminate my world to your way of thinking and that is all you have to say?
I was actually hoping to learn something. It would mean a lot to me if I understood your beliefs.


He's directing you to the con artists that conned him.

Basically, in their world "nothing" is not nothing, it actually real and it exists. ROFL.



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15 Mar 2015, 10:54 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
utter nonsense. The scientific method is not logically flawed

Then by all means externally verify it WITHOUT using any kind of empirical observation. Demonstrate that science is pure reasoning and completely non-circular.

To anyone else "observing" this, note the inherent trap here. Dent is making the assertion--unsubstantiated, I might add--that the scientific method is not logically flawed. This presupposes a few things. For one, it's the baseless assumption that science is rational. Science in and of itself is NOT rational. Not in the sense that Dent is describing it, anyway. Science demands a standard of falsification. Now, one could falsify the method itself as a theory or hypothesis, which is ironic, because Dent just said there is no need to falsify the method. For the sake of time and brevity, I let that fish go. So in a way, you COULD say that the method is externally verifiable (falsifiable) and can be independently observed, both in action and through artifacts such as computers and the internet. The problem, however, is in order to do that, one must use fundamental elements of the method itself--peer review or independent verification, and human observation. This requires the scientific method to prove itself by using itself, i.e. assuming what it is trying to prove. This is not how logic works. Science eschews circularity. This is a logical flaw. Dent's position is untenable.

That's only one side of the trap. Now let's look at the other side.

What would defeat the circularity would be if there were something beyond scientific observation that would render it externally verifiable using some principle not directly or indirectly borrowed from it. As we understand it, the idea of non-observational means to externally verify science would be absurd. Why? Because this requires observation on some level. In other words, this is inescapable in any sense that we mere mortals are aware of.

But let's suppose that such a thing could exist and isn't absurd. This would necessarily require something outside science, quite possibly beyond the physical universe or at least beyond the physical universe as we understand it. If Dent is solely relying on science and insists on its rationality, he is unable to reach beyond the universe as we know it to find that answer. He would be forced to admit that something else exists and empiricism in the way he understands it is insufficient. This is something Dent can't afford to admit.

Short of admitting faith in God is just as rational as science, the safest conclusion is that science contains a logical flaw that we can accept without negatively impacting science's usefulness to us. A corollary to that is that if one can accept SOME irrationality enough to accept the physical world and observational explanations for it, then one can also accept SOME irrationality that allows for the reality of God.



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15 Mar 2015, 11:09 pm

We can't even scientifically verify the existence of such intangibles as love and hate, yet we see the effects of these emotions in the world around us all the time. We cannot "prove" them yet we can observe them as real.


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15 Mar 2015, 11:19 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
We can't even scientifically verify the existence of such intangibles as love and hate, yet we see the effects of these emotions in the world around us all the time. We cannot "prove" them yet we can observe them as real.

Not quote true. We can observe the changes in body chemistry involved with such emotions.


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16 Mar 2015, 12:03 am

will@rd wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
Is there any proof that god exists? If so then where is it? Why does he hide from humanity let alone not do anything about the horrible things going on in the world? If he did exist everything would be perfect and people wouldn't blow themselves up for false promises of 72 virgins in a make believe land known as heaven! Why do religious believers scowl at science and religion? Is it because it goes against their beliefs even though most of their findings are facts? I am pretty sure there is no proof a mythological being exists because its kinda hard to disprove something that doesn't exist in the first place so that loop hole has been corked right then and there!


There is no proof that anything exists, except your own mind. Everything you see, touch, eat, breathe, hear, smell, including your own body - all of it may be a hallucination, or a dream. Other than the existence of your own consciousness, anything you accept as true, is something you choose to believe.

That said, you need to specify to what "god" you are referring. There are and have been hundreds (at least) of deities worshiped by human beings, some local nature spirits, some said to be the lord of this or that natural phenomenon, some lauded as the one and only, gen-u-wine, original Creator-of-the-Universe. Even within a single religion, you will find different experts disagreeing on the qualities of their accepted divinity.

Since you reference Heaven and refer to this god as HE, I assume you're talking about Yahweh, the god of Abraham and the supposed progenitor of Jesus Christ. You talk about "Heaven" in the same way most Sunday School children and adult fundamentalists do, as though it were a physical PLACE, with pearly gates and streets of gold. That may be pablum fit for the dimwitted masses, but no serious, intelligent seeker after truth believes that. It's like autistic kids who take metaphors literally. To imagine that the creator of the universe lives in cloud city, sitting on a throne, growing a long white beard and watching for sinners to spank is just stupid, just as the extremists who believe that the same Creator of all Men wants them to murder their brothers and sisters for not belonging to the correct cult, and they'll be rewarded for this fratricide with 72 virgins. What they ought to ask is "Virgin what"?

If you want to understand what the concept of "God" actually means, you need to study Quantum Physics and String Theory - because all the mysteries unfolding in those fields of study today are the very things that the wisest and most insightful explorers of inner space have been telling us for centuries - but you can't begin to grok what they're telling you, until you start to grasp just what spacetime dimensionality really implies - until you wrap your head around the fact that all matter is vibrating energy and that the world you think you live in is just 4 dimensions out of at least ten and possibly an infinity.

Your five senses can only comprehend width, breadth, height and time. There may be entire universes full of life passing by at the tip of your nose, that you simply don't have the physical ability to perceive. 8O Could "God" or "gods" (or unicorns and fairies) be in one of them? Even more likely, could all those worlds (including this one) be inside of God? Are we characters in God's imagination? Is the multiverse a hologram, conscious unto itself? If God is pure conscious energy, maybe all the physical universes and the life forms in them are simply God's way of gaining experience and learning about itself, by engaging in role playing games.

Now, that said, let's turn to your questions about why God might sit by and allow bad things to happen. First, define "bad." If God is all, then both positive and negative, light and dark, good and evil, pleasure and pain - all of these are parts of God and yet, none of them are real, they are only conceptual constructs. You cannot perceive light without darkness as contrast. If you never felt sad, how would you know when you were happy? If you never experienced rain, why would you care about another sunny day?

Black and white are just opposite sides of the same circle. The world of experiences could not exist without both. Without the choice of good or evil, creation and destruction, we could not have free will - we would all be mindless puppets with only ONE course to follow. To be truly free, you have to have a choice, even if that means one of those choices is a negative one. Any creator who constantly interfered in our choices and forced us to go in a specific direction would not be a loving creator, but a dictator tyrant and we would be toys, not thinking, growing individuals.

I don't believe God "hides" from humanity, I think people often choose to be blind - look at the complexity of the universe we can see (and remember its only one of many), from the orbits of electrons, to living microbes, to visceral, breathing nature, to solar systems, galaxies, black holes and a universe so vast we can't even see the edges of it. As much as pessimistic materialists might like to insist that its all a cosmic accident and we're just bags of chemicals who wink out like a TV screen and disappear when we die, I don't believe that (and there's plenty of evidence to the contrary). I have had experiences that have shown me glimpses of what lies beyond the usually closed doors of our normal perception - and if you think this universe is a big place - you ain't seen nothin' yet.

The truth is, your brain is not the source of your consciousness - your brain is like a radio receiver, and the you that lives in this world is just a tiny fragment of the whole you (like the voice that comes through the microphone), a fragment that's being channeled through that brain and expressing itself as your current personality. When the body shuts down, the ego that goes by your current name may be discarded, that was just your character in the role playing game to begin with - but the totality of conscious energy that was operating the controller will still exist. This world is an amusement park ride and the first rule of admittance is: You must forget what you really are until the game ends, in order to fully commit to your character. As you work through the levels, you'll eventually figure out that its just a game, and begin to regain your memory. You may go through several character roles before you get that advanced.

Now, I don't expect you to believe any of that just because I said it. You owe it to yourself to seek your own answers. The truth is out there. Actually, its in there, but just start looking, you'll figure it out. Start by reading. A lot. And never assume you have ALL the answers, there's always more to learn. Mostly, avoid anyone who's so arrogant that they're absolutely sure they're right and nobody knows any more than they do - those people are always wrong, not to mention unpleasant to be around.

Hope that at least gave you a little insight into some of the things you were pondering and sets you off in a direction where some of your answers lie.


The Truth of the Matter is, GOD is way too big for most folks who are speaking in this thread to wrap around one hemisphere of the brain to the exclusion of the interpreting BRAIN, rather than a synergy WITH THE describing brain.

And yes, that's a loose metaphor still but IT 'describes' the general gist of the problem here, per 'hemispheral' limitations.

The only GOD that is recognized here is the Abrahamic GOD, OVERALL, and truly that puts folks square in the LIMITED AND RESTRICTED pot of STUFF THEY are criticizing as limited. AND TRULY, THAT'S amusingly ironic to me.

However, the TRUE LIMITATION, IS IN closed mindedness for whatever innate and or environmental mix that makes that happen in human being.

Even science shows now that 'half a mind' can be repressed by living in the devil of details rather than the bigger picture of 'Nature' and or 'GOD', including human flesh and blood, social cognition connecting ways.

To live as symbols rather than essence is a sad and limiting way to live.

I'm just happy I don't live in that OVERALL place of human misery and suffering anymore.

The escape is simply bliss.

And I see light in most of what you speak here; albeit not ALL provable by the scribe of science; but EVEN GOD IS MORE CREATIVE THAN THAT.

SCIENCE IS JUST the crumbs of life; such a starvation diet of fully living human life 'IT' IS.

And to be clear, what I mean in this context, is the systemizing mind used to the exclusion of the sensory, emotional, imaginative, and creative mind USED as a synergy OF MIND AND BODY BALANCE with reason; WITH reason as a relatively tiny part of the mind, AS a synergy of force of the 'Quantum' human mind unleashed and released, AS has been done by the 'fortunate ones' in all of recorded history, per MUCH DEEPER WAYS of perceiving and living life, AS A FREER HUMAN BEING LIVING WITH TRUTH AND LIGHT INSTEAD OF AGAINST IT, IN CYNICISM OF THE LIGHT, AND FEAR OF THE DARK, WHERE LIGHT CANNOT ESCAPE THE DARK.

Science does not usually manufacture wisdom, as true wisdom is beyond measurable phenomenon in a repeatable experiment.

Human emotion cannot even be repeated or measured, per each unique human being.

To go where no man has gone before, is, to truly be human.

To try to stay on the same page, is to attempt to be machine.

I'll stick with human and GO WITH GOD INSTEAD OF swimming up AGAINST the RIVER of GOD TO THE HIGHWAY TO LITERAL HUMAN HELL OF RESTRICTED HUMAN BODY, MIND, HEART, SOUL, SPIRIT AND BEYOND simply and COMPLEXLY out of balance.

And with that said, HERE IS A little song for 'AFFECT', OFTEN MISSING IN THIS 'AREA' OF LIFE.



And while I used to live life, as Another Ground Hog Day (aghogday), per literal sameness;

Now I'm on the happier side of 'THE HIGHWAY TO HELL', PER METAPHOR OF the REAL other place, AS HEAVEN NOW.

AND i AM 'BLISSED' with A title of 'MINDERELLA' AKA' MINdErElLa', so FAR beyond the mechanical cognition mind, am i, FOR NOW AT LEAST, AS again, Change is CONSTANT, NOW, THANK GOD..:)

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2015/03/14/minderella/

The human mind and body, more fully explored in balance, is A UNIVERSE UNTO ITSELF, AS A 'QUANTUM' mind and body IN BALANCE, FULLY RELEASED, UNLEASHED AND SET FREE the way IT CAN BE, BUT NEVER EVER, with a closed mind and body OUT OF BALANCE.

JUST my opinion, of course, per MY TRUE UNIVERSE OF EXPERIENCING LIFE, NOW..:)



Image



Life...

Stranger than fiction..

'cause it ain't gotta' make cents..

for a profit.. prophets don't need money..

to paraphrase.. the prophet.. Mark Twain..:)


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16 Mar 2015, 12:47 am

aghogday wrote:
The Truth of the Matter is, GOD is way too big for most folks who are speaking in this thread to wrap around one hemisphere of the brain to the exclusion of the interpreting BRAIN, rather than a synergy WITH THE describing brain.
And yes, that's a loose metaphor still but IT 'describes' the general gist of the problem here, per 'hemispheral' limitations.


Yes for all we know there may be a higher "lifeform" that created us after terra-forming earth.

However, the god of Abraham was was believed to have created the earth in 7 days according to a desert dwelling nomadic people thousands of years ago who (like everyone else at the time) tried to make sense of why we are here and what (if any) purpose was their in existence or in the world.

We know holy books purported to be written by god (i.e. Talmud, Torah, Bible, Quran) are full of man made crap because they make fairly obvious scientific mistakes that to a scientist are cringeworthy i.e. Plants are "made" on the third day of creation before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30

In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

There are so many of these that it makes me cry why 63% of Americans "believe" in the literal meaning of the bible



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16 Mar 2015, 1:04 am

cyberdad wrote:
aghogday wrote:
The Truth of the Matter is, GOD is way too big for most folks who are speaking in this thread to wrap around one hemisphere of the brain to the exclusion of the interpreting BRAIN, rather than a synergy WITH THE describing brain.
And yes, that's a loose metaphor still but IT 'describes' the general gist of the problem here, per 'hemispheral' limitations.


Yes for all we know there may be a higher "lifeform" that created us after terra-forming earth.

However, the god of Abraham was was believed to have created the earth in 7 days according to a desert dwelling nomadic people thousands of years ago who (like everyone else at the time) tried to make sense of why we are here and what (if any) purpose was their in existence or in the world.

We know holy books purported to be written by god (i.e. Talmud, Torah, Bible, Quran) are full of man made crap because they make fairly obvious scientific mistakes that to a scientist are cringeworthy i.e. Plants are "made" on the third day of creation before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30

In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

There are so many of these that it makes me cry why 63% of Americans "believe" in the literal meaning of the bible


Yes, and sadly enough some folks are still literally crying tears of blood over this human silliness OF ANCIENT ABRAHAMIC RELIGION AND THE tribal manufactured imaginary anthropomorphic GOD and or man, thereof.

If it wasn't so bloody, and such a source of truly imprisoning what the human spirit can be more fully set free in balance and synergy of 'Quantum' mind, per body, mind, heart, soul, spirit and beyond of all 'our' Nature given human nature, it could just be rib splitting funny.

But of course that goes back to Mark Twain and the FACT THAT HUMANS DON'T MAKE SENSE.

RELIGION IS PROOF OF THAT ALONE, and culture when restrictively practiced.

Funny how insane is sane and sane is insane, IN REAL LIFE, PER many SOCIAL/religious NORMS.

Overall, perhaps, some of 'us', are GOD's little jokes.

And WHO KNOWS, FOR now, perhaps that's the TRUE EFFECT AND/or lack of affect OF God prescribed KARMA.

NO one has proven GOD is fair; but alternately, beyond what can be literally measured, no one has proven the converse, either, of course, as science wears no cape, AND IS STRICTLY VANILLA.

And sense science is far far from FULLY measuring AND SCRIBING GOD aka Nature, science overall, is a 'wimp', instead of 'real star' of the POTENTIAL FOR FULLER experiencing HUMAN life..:)


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16 Mar 2015, 1:44 am

Aghogday, as has been pointed out before you say very little with a large number of words. Essentially your view of god is very simple. Take the natural world and claim it has sentience and dominion over us.


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