Should Christians ever fight?

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iamnotaparakeet
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19 Jun 2010, 11:27 am

pandabear wrote:

Actually, some of the old testament apocrypha have a more Christiany flavour to them than the rest of the Old Testament, which may have been part of the reason for removing them from the Bible.

No, the apocrypha is not included because they fail when it comes to the criteria for canonicity. And worse yet are the pseudepigrapha.

greenblue
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19 Jun 2010, 1:56 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

pandabear wrote:

Actually, some of the old testament apocrypha have a more Christiany flavour to them than the rest of the Old Testament, which may have been part of the reason for removing them from the Bible.

No, the apocrypha is not included because they fail when it comes to the criteria for canonicity. And worse yet are the pseudepigrapha.

Worse? But they are cool and very interesting, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is one of my favorites, and it makes me think of wether that could be actually the case if happened in real life, and it seems that it puts some of the held beliefs into question, given that.

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pandabear
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19 Jun 2010, 8:37 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

pandabear wrote:

Actually, some of the old testament apocrypha have a more Christiany flavour to them than the rest of the Old Testament, which may have been part of the reason for removing them from the Bible.

No, the apocrypha is not included because they fail when it comes to the criteria for canonicity. And worse yet are the pseudepigrapha.

Well, actually I was referring to various books (such as the book of Tobit, Esdras I and II, Macabees I and II, etc.) that are in the Catholic bible, but generally not included in Protestant bibles.

They make Catholic critera for canonicity, but not protestant.

If you read them, you do find (in places) more Christiany-sounding outlooks than in other Old Testament books. Possibly because some of them were written closer to the time of Jesus than the Protestant Old Testament books, and may have been exposed to similar cultural influences.

Wombat
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20 Jun 2010, 10:57 pm

Before Christianity we Europeans had a manly religion.

You went to Valhalla where you got to fight all day then feast, drink and wench all night.

Now imagine that you are a Quaker a couple of hundred years ago.

Indians attack your homestead. They burn down your house, slit your children's throats and rape your wife in front of you.

Yet you will just stand there like a total idiot praying for their souls.

HOW STUPID ARE YOU?

Blasterx343
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21 Jun 2010, 3:35 am

The ideal is to never to fight.

Whether or not to retaliate goes down to what you believe the consequences of said actions are.

Fighting to defend others may be justified, Fighting for the sake of fighting should be condemned. and fighting to defend one's self is justifiable, however excessive force is not and it is always better to use diplomacy and charity.

The usage of violence however is always flawed, an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is not justice but vengance and leads to only more vengance and violence.

And going into the odd interpretations of the bible can only lead to trouble,

Quote:

'"And Mr. Goriff comes from Elharib, and the two countries only stopped fighting ten years ago. Religous differences."
"run out of weapons?" said Vimes.
"Ran out of rocks, sir. They ran out of weapons last century."
Vimes shook his head. "That always chews me up, people killing one another just because their gods have squabbled-"
"Oh they have the same god, sir. Apparently it's over a word in their holy book, sir. The Elharibians say it translates as "God" and the Smalies say it translates as "man"."
"How can you mix them up?"
"Well, there's only one tiny dot difference in the script, you see. And some people reckon it's only a bit of fly dirt in any case."
"Centuries of war because a fly crapped in the wrong place?"
"It could have been worse", said Carrot. "If it had been slightly to the left the word would have been 'liquorice'."

A conversation between Capt. Carrot and Commander Vimes of the Ankh Morpork city watch, in Jingo p160 by Terry Pratchett

Edit: Also God acts through man, a favourite tale is
A devout man in a flood climbs the steeple of his local church, first a truck shows up and offers to take him to safety the man says "God will save me" and climbs higher, then a fire truck arrives and the fireman on the ladder offers to save him and the man replies in the same way, finally a boat arrives and offers to save him and he replies that "God will save me, go rescue others.". When the man reaches heaven and asks why God did not save him, God's response is "I attempted to save you three times and you refused each time."

pandabear
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21 Jun 2010, 9:52 am

Wombat wrote:

Indians attack your homestead. They burn down your house, slit your children's throats and rape your wife in front of you.

Yet you will just stand there like a total idiot praying for their souls.

HOW STUPID ARE YOU?

As stupid as Jesus. :roll:

iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jun 2010, 10:59 am

pandabear wrote:

Wombat wrote:

As stupid as Jesus. :roll:

Based upon the Bible, if that matters to you, how will Jesus rule after His second coming? The first time He came as the sacrifice for our sins, the second He will rule with an iron scepter.

pandabear
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21 Jun 2010, 11:31 am

No more the meek, gentle, passive Jesus?

No more the kind, merciful, sweet, compassionate, generous, benevolent and loving Jesus?

Is Jesus now vengeful, demonic, and unforgiving?

How do you account for this transformation?

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21 Jun 2010, 6:20 pm

Fighting is a necessary means of upholding any culture.

Regardless of whether its spiritual hero preaches pacifism (and even then Jesus encouraged his disciples to be prepared to defend themselves: "sell your cloak and buy a sword"), a culture in which young men and women are not trained and encouraged to fight is a culture that is becoming weak and wilting away in darkness.

iamnotaparakeet
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22 Jun 2010, 7:30 am

pandabear wrote:

To those who are merciful, they'll be shown mercy, but He had already said that vengeance was His. You keep trying to make Jesus fit the mold of a hippie, but He was also the one who drove the merchants out of the outer court of the temple. Calling Jesus "demonic" due to your perspective of violence is just plain wrong. He is forgiving, but only to those who forgive.

However, fighting in a war doesn't require one to be fighting due to a need for vengeance or feelings of unforgiving. In a war with the Nazis or with insane Jihadists, it is not a matter of that so much as putting down a danger. If you wish to say that's "cold-blooded", fine, but don't try to have your cake and eat it too by saying it is also "hot-blooded" at the same time.

pandabear
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22 Jun 2010, 9:31 am

Jesus didn't fit the profile of a hippy? With his robe, long hair and beard?

He doesn't exactly fit the mold of your average evangelical preacher, either.

Modern churches are all about making money. Driving merchants out of a church wouldn't be done these days.

If you're being loving and forgiving, then why would you fight in a war?

War is all about vengeance and not forgiving. Even the Nazis and Jihadists do this. How are you better than they?

iamnotaparakeet
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22 Jun 2010, 10:42 am

pandabear wrote:

Jesus didn't wear the same thing always, nobody can, certainly not for 33 years. Long hair was part of being a Nazarene, such as Samson was also and he certain wasn't a pacifist.

No, why should he fit the mold of an average corrupt evangelical preacher? He shouldn't.

Modern churches tend to have embraced materialism in one form or another, they are wrong for doing this.

So that fewer people in the future may have to deal with such horrors as Warsaw.

War does not have to be about vengeance or unforgiving. It can be about the neutralization of an ongoing threat.
I am better than Jihadists in that I don't hate God's chosen people, the Jewish people.

pandabear
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22 Jun 2010, 4:26 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

I am better than Jihadists in that I don't hate God's chosen people, the Jewish people.

Art thou confident in thine own righteousness? Dost thou exalt thyself for not hating Jews?

Quote:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Consider also Luke 6

Quote:

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Go now to the Palestinian territories. Proclaim God's love through Jesus. Teach the Jihadists to love the Jews as you love the Jews yourself.

American Indians have every reason to be resentful of White people, for having their lands stolen and their ways of life destroyed. But, I knew at least one American Indian who was grateful that white people had come, because without the white people, the Indians would have never known Jesus and read the Bible.

Think how grateful the Jihadists will feel towards you, once you have shown them the blessings of Christianity.

iamnotaparakeet
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22 Jun 2010, 4:56 pm

pandabear wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

I am better than Jihadists in that I don't hate God's chosen people, the Jewish people.

Art thou confident in thine own righteousness? Dost thou exalt thyself for not hating Jews?

You jerk, I'm not exalting myself, you asked "how are you better than they", and this is one way that I am.

pandabear
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22 Jun 2010, 5:02 pm

Well, I think that finding one way that you are superior to Jihadist, and labeling me a "jerk", would constitute self-exaltation.

iamnotaparakeet
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22 Jun 2010, 5:08 pm

pandabear wrote:

Well, I think that finding one way that you are superior to Jihadist, and labeling me a "jerk", would constitute self-exaltation.

You asked me, as a question, "how". I gave you one example to attempt to be nice, but you went on trolling based upon the mere semblance of the words which you intended to do before I said anything. I don't exalt myself, I answered your contemptible loaded question, which you truncated in your reply. You are far more reprehensible than a jerk.

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