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Bible promotes outdated kingships, kingdoms vs democracy?

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pgd
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01 Mar 2011, 12:48 pm

Is the Bible today - year 2011 - politically subversive to modern society since it actively promotes the outdated idea of queens, kings, kingships, kingdoms, monarchies vs modern democracy?

The Bible also promotes slavery as in Christians like Saul/Paul being a slave to Jesus Christ.

Is that a violation of civil rights in the USA?

- Politics, Philosophies, Religions, Democracies vs Matriarchies/Monarchies



LKL
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01 Mar 2011, 2:28 pm

It would be a violation of civil rights (and the constitution) if it were implemented. People get to say (or print) whatever they want, though, as long as it doesn't directly instigate violence or harm.



JakobVirgil
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01 Mar 2011, 2:38 pm

the bible does nothing of the sort it just sits there.
people promote these things.
-Jake



Natty_Boh
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01 Mar 2011, 2:42 pm

^^^ All too often. Somebody needs to invent a self-dusting Bible.


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Vexcalibur
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01 Mar 2011, 3:45 pm

Kingdoms are outdated, but the epistles order Christians to obey all authority.

http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/ ... 13_01.html
http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/ ... 12_14.html
http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/ ... 13_05.html
http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/ ... 3_02a.html
http://www.bricktestament.com/epistles/ ... 3_02b.html


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iamnotaparakeet
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01 Mar 2011, 4:11 pm

I doubt Samuel would have agreed, given what is written in 1 Samuel 8:4-20

Quote:
Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.



ruveyn
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01 Mar 2011, 5:46 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I doubt Samuel would have agreed, given what is written in 1 Samuel 8:4-20

Quote:
Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.


One of my favorite passages. Israel's greatest sin was asking for a human king. The Israelites wanted to be like every other nation. Bad career move.

ruveyn



JakobVirgil
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01 Mar 2011, 5:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I doubt Samuel would have agreed, given what is written in 1 Samuel 8:4-20

Quote:
Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.


One of my favorite passages. Israel's greatest sin was asking for a human king. The Israelites wanted to be like every other nation. Bad career move.

ruveyn


Hey, me too I see a parallel to when Israel became a nation.
I think we traded a bit of our specialness and objective outsider viewpoint
and became a nation like any other.
-Jake



ruveyn
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01 Mar 2011, 5:53 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Hey, me too I see a parallel to when Israel became a nation.
I think we traded a bit of our specialness and objective outsider viewpoint
and became a nation like any other.
-Jake


Amen. One cannot be "chosen" or "special" and also be like everyone else. It is either - or and not both.

ruveyn



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01 Mar 2011, 7:04 pm

Given the context of the epistles, Paul certainly wasn't saying to yield to governments mindlessly. After all, he was arrested several times and commited treason by spreading the word. I believe it was more a call to not be like the zealots, who tried to destroy the roman empire. And failed. Badly.



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01 Mar 2011, 8:36 pm

I think the hebrew bible can be read as being opposed to kings.
in addition to samuel.
1) the first three kings

Saul -the righteous man (was not Saul among the prophets)
Transgresses at the sacrifice and tries to kill david.
David -the brave man
kills for gain
Solomon -the wisest man
Brings Idolatry into Israel

I think they are posited as arguments that no king can be good
no matter what the character of the man who becames king he ends a villian.

-Jake



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02 Mar 2011, 12:01 pm

"King of Kings, Lord of Lords" comes word for word from the titles of the rulers of ancient Persia.

When the Bible was written, monarchy was the way things were done. People express their mythology in terms of the language and culture of their time and place. The Bible was written by and for people of a different culture and, in my opinion, does not really apply to modern day peoples if one insists on taking it literally. If one can grasp the meaning of the teachings without getting hung up on the details of the stories used to communicate those teachings, that is fine. Unfortunately that is difficult for many people.

The 20th century philosopher Alan Watts commented more than once how ironic it is that there are many people who claim to love democracy but who cling to a monarchical model of the universe.


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02 Mar 2011, 12:07 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
"King of Kings, Lord of Lords" comes word for word from the titles of the rulers of ancient Persia.


...Song of Songs, vanity of vanities...'twas the Semitic way of forming the superlative. The most kingly among kings; the lordliest of lords; the song to end all songs.


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