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Oodain
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20 Mar 2012, 5:19 pm

but you still see continous attempt to achieve the exact opposite if not by law then by effect.


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20 Mar 2012, 5:27 pm

Oodain wrote:
but you still see continous attempt to achieve the exact opposite if not by law then by effect.


Of course! Organized religion sanctioned by the state has been used for 6,000 years to justify and legitimize the social order(not to mention keep people in their place).



DC
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20 Mar 2012, 5:36 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
TM, there are ways we are working to fight non-institutionalised sexism and violence against women, but interestingly many of the people who are o-so-concerned for Islamic women have no support at all for the movement that is working to change these things for women in their own backyard. very ironic.


Hyperlexian, with all due respect I think you should get off your high horse and leave moderation of these topics to someone that is British because I'm afraid you are completely and utterly clueless about the situation in Britain and Europe with regard to Islam, integration, feminism and multiculturalism.

You may as well be living on a different planet.

In Britain we have just had the most feminist friendly government in history in power for 13 years. A government with more women in it than ever before, more women in the cabinet than ever before, more open discussion of feminist issues than ever before, more women friendly legislation than ever before and more money directed to women's issues than ever before.

And yet during this time, those very same women and feminists have responded by screaming RACIST! at anyone that dares to bring up the issue of the treatment of women or children in Britain by the islamic community.

A PEW global attitudes survey a few years ago showed that more muslims in Britain supported violent Jihad than muslims in Pakistan (Self indoctrination on the internet is to blame for that).

A BBC survey this month showed that two thirds of muslim men and a big minority of muslim women think domestic violence is acceptable to preserve honour.

BBC again from a few months ago, while the majority of muslim men do not express support for muslim men raping white children the majority of muslim men blame the children for the crime because they all dress like whores.

These survey's are not carried out by rightwing nazi groups, PEW is apolitical and one of the world's most respected survey organisations and the BBC is centre left on most issues.


You really, really don't have a clue Hyperlexian so perhaps you should back off and learn a bit instead of making yourself look foolish?


Perhaps Canadian news forgot to mention issues like this in sunny old Europe:

Quote:
More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder.

The Muslims -- all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities -- were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6.

Police used batons and pepper spray to fend off the gang members, who were armed with an arsenal of 20 different types of weapons, including crowbars, darts, hammers, knives, screwdrivers and wooden clubs.

The trial in Glostrup involves two Pakistani immigrants accused of shooting and attempting to murder two fellow Muslims who belong to a rival gang. Police say the accused used a nine millimeter handgun to carry out the crime in Ballerup, a Muslim suburb northwest of Copenhagen. The trial began on February 28 and is scheduled to run through March 28.

The shooting was related to an escalating turf war between rival Muslim gangs from the Værebroparken housing estate in Bagsværd, a suburb of Copenhagen, and Nivå and Kokkedal in northern Zealand. Immigrant gangs are believed to be responsible for at least 50 shootings in and around Copenhagen during the past several months.

The recent violence is reminiscent of an earlier conflict between immigrant gangs and Danish gangs like the Hells Angels or the AK81 that left many people dead or wounded in Copenhagen and other Danish cities.

The immigrant gangs are involved in countless criminal activities, including drug trafficking, illegal weapons smuggling, extortion, human trafficking, robbery, prostitution, automobile theft, racketeering and murder.

Many of the gang members are ethnic Arabs, Bosnians, Turks and Somalians. They also include Iraqis, Moroccans, Palestinians and Pakistanis.

Over the past several years, the immigrant gangs have proliferated geographically across all of Denmark. The gangs have spread south from Copenhagen to the rest of Zealand, from inner Nørrebro, to the suburbs Ishøj, Greve, Greve, and on to Køge. The gangs are also active in Albertslund, Herlev, Hillerød, Høje Gladsaxe, Hundige, Roskilde and Skovlunde, among many Danish localities.

One of the largest criminal gangs in Denmark is a Muslim gang called Black Cobra. The organization was founded by Palestinian immigrants in Roskilde near Copenhagen in 2000 and now operates in all Danish cities.

Black Cobra has also established itself in Sweden, where it operates with impunity in the Islamized Tensta and Rinkeby suburbs of Stockholm and in the Muslim ghetto of Rosengård in Malmö.

The Black Cobra gang -- whose members wear black and white shirts with an emblem of a cobra in attack position -- also controls a youth gang called the Black Scorpions.

Danish authorities estimate that each year more than 700 immigrants between the ages of 18 and 25 are choosing crime as a permanent career by joining gangs such as Black Cobra, the Black Scorpions, the Bandidos, the Bloodz, the International Club, or any other of the more than 100 gangs that are now operating in Denmark.

On February 28, the Danish national police (Rigspolitiet) together with the Justice Ministry presented parliament with a plan to push back against the gangs. Police say they hope they can arrest 300 high-ranking gang members -- 200 from Zealand and 100 from Jutland -- by the end of 2012. The government has also committed 50 million Danish kroner ($9 million) in 2012 to a special project aimed at intercepting and preventing gang recruitment in marginalized areas.

But analysts are skeptical the Danish government can do very much to crack down on the gangs. Although Danish police say they arrested more than 350 gang members in 2011, many of those detentions involved lower-ranking "errand boys" who were released after being questioned.

Some critics say a big problem is a lack of will and that Danish efforts to crack down on the immigrant gangs have been half-hearted at best. In Denmark -- as in other European countries where the state-enforced dogma of multiculturalism trumps traditional notions of equal justice for all -- immigrants involved in crime are portrayed as victims of circumstance and relatively few are ever sent to prison.

In those cases where immigrants are detained, many are released after just a few hours. Critics say this encourages them to avenge their arrests. A case in point: Of the more than 140 Muslims who were arrested for trying to storm the courthouse in Glostrup on March 6, all but five were immediately released. That same night many of those who were released went on a rampage in Værebroparken, setting fire to trash bins and launching missiles at hapless police.

But a larger part of the problem involves fear.

Immigrant gangs often operate or seek refuge in so-called no-go zones that are effectively off limits to Danish authorities. These "no-go zones" involve suburbs of Copenhagen and other Danish cities that function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Muslim immigrants, areas where Danish police fear to tread.

Muslim gangs in Denmark have been highly adept at leveraging the fear that Danish authorities have of Islam and of Muslim immigrants. They replicated the model that Muslim gangs in Britain have successfully used to wrest control over the criminal underworld in that country.

In an interview with a British newspaper, an Asian Muslim gang member named Amir put it this way: "The reality is that Asian gangs don't give much of toss about religion, but with Islam comes fear, and with fear comes power. Religion is important to us only as a way of defining who we can trust and who we can work with. Young Muslim gangs aren't worried about what Allah makes of their criminal ways -- they don't believe in it to that extent."

Amir added: "Through religion we speak the same language, live in the same areas, go to the same schools and can even use mosques as a safe place away from the police or other gangs. If you f*** with a Muslim gang you'd better be able to run fast or hide well, because they will come back at you in numbers.



hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2012, 6:01 pm

DC wrote:
Hyperlexian, with all due respect

:lol: don't insult my intelligence by saying "with all due respect" then saying something disrespectful. it's ridiculous, don't you think?
Quote:

In Britain we have just had the most feminist friendly government in history in power for 13 years. A government with more women in it than ever before, more women in the cabinet than ever before, more open discussion of feminist issues than ever before, more women friendly legislation than ever before and more money directed to women's issues than ever before.

so what? that doesn't mean women have fully reached any sort of equality. but you flatly missed the point. i wasn't talking about equality, i was talking about violence against women perptrated by males who are NOT muslim.

domestic violence happens to non-muslim people too, and it is also swept under the rug. why aren't you speaking up for those women? here are some statistics for you to peruse, from your very own country:

Quote:
One in four women: An analysis of 10 separate domestic violence prevalence studies found consistent findings: 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence over their lifetimes and between 6-10% of women suffer domestic violence in a given year (Council of Europe, 2002).

12.9 million incidents: The British Crime Survey found that there were an estimated 12.9 million incidents of domestic violence acts (that constituted non-sexual threats or force) against women and 2.5 million against men in England and Wales in the year preceding interview (Walby & Allen, 2004).

One in five counselling sessions: Nearly 1 in 5 counselling sessions held in Relate Centres in England on 28 September 2000 mentioned domestic violence as an issue in the marriage (Stanko, 2000).

45% women and 26% men had experienced at least one incident of inter-personal violence in their lifetimes. (Walby and Allen, 2004)

One call a minute to the police: Though only a minority of incidents of domestic violence are reported to the police , the police still receive one call about domestic violence for every minute in the UK, an estimated 1,300 calls each day or over 570,000 each year. (Stanko, 2000). However, according to the British Crime Survey, less than 40% of domestic violence crime is reported to the police (Dodd et al, July 2004; Walby and Allen, 2004; Home Office, 2002).

Repeat victimisation is common. 44% of victims of domestic violence are involved in more than one incident. No other type of crime has a rate of repeat victimisation as high (Dodd et al, July 2004).

Women assaulted by men they know: The self-completeion module of the 2001 British Crime Survey research found that "women are most commonly sexually assaulted by men they know". When the researchers asked women about the last incident of rape experienced since the age of 16, they found that 45% were raped by current husbands or partners, 9% by former partners, and a further 29% of perpetrators were otherwise known to the victim. Only 17% were raped by strangers (Walby & Allen, 2004).

Assaults from partners not living together: Of women who had experienced domestic violence, 25% had never lived with the partner who had committed the worst act of violence against them. (Walby & Allen, 2004).

Of women who had experienced domestic violence, 25% had never lived with the partner who had committed the worst act of violence against them. (Walby & Allen, 2004).

Fear of being killed: In a study of 200 women's experiences of domestic violence it was found that 60% of the women had left because they feared that they or their children would be killed by the perpetrator (Humphreys & Thiara, 2002).

Homicide: On average, two women a week are killed by a violent partner or ex-partner. This constitutes nearly 40% of all female homicide victims. (Povey, (ed.), 2005; Home Office, 1999; Department of Health, 2005.)

i suppose you must find it easier to blame the big bad muslims while your own non-muslim countrymen are abusing their partners. if you're going to advocate for muslim women only, it clearly becomes a case of pushing your own anti-muslim agenda.


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hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2012, 6:04 pm

TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, there are ways we are working to fight non-institutionalised sexism and violence against women, but interestingly many of the people who are o-so-concerned for Islamic women have no support at all for the movement that is working to change these things for women in their own backyard. very ironic.


In my case, the lack of support stems from a disillusion with the broad feminist movement. I still support gender equality, within a freedom principle. Meaning that everyone should have access to the same opportunities regardless of gender and be able to chose between them freely. It means that the best qualified person should get the job and that the couple themselves should be allowed to decide how to handle things like maternity leave meaning that they can freely divide the majority of it between them as they desire. It means that a persons pay should be based on that persons value to the company regardless of gender and quite a few other things.
i agree with those things and i am a feminist. maybe you need to rethink what you believe feminists are saying.

the part about maternity leave is how it is handled in Canada. the woman gets 15 weeks paid for her physical recovery, and the couple splits a remaining 35 weeks of parental leave, which can be used by either or both parents in any combination.


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ruveyn
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20 Mar 2012, 6:05 pm

Joker wrote:
Christians and Jews have been violent towards women but we do not tie them up and ripped their finger nails out when they paint them this happens in muslims countries.


There is abuse of spouse or girlfriend due to individual defect. Then there is abuse that is encouraged, sanctioned and even required by religious doctrine.

ruveyn



20 Mar 2012, 6:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
Christians and Jews have been violent towards women but we do not tie them up and ripped their finger nails out when they paint them this happens in muslims countries.


There is abuse of spouse or girlfriend due to individual defect. Then there is abuse that is encouraged, sanctioned and even required by religious doctrine.

ruveyn



You're neglecting child abuse, which is encouraged, sanctioned, and required by christian doctrine.



Raptor
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20 Mar 2012, 6:19 pm

If I'm not mistaken they still publicly whip women in Islamic nations for religious infractions where as we do not do that in any civilized western nation.
That in itself says a lot..........



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20 Mar 2012, 6:20 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
Christians and Jews have been violent towards women but we do not tie them up and ripped their finger nails out when they paint them this happens in muslims countries.


There is abuse of spouse or girlfriend due to individual defect. Then there is abuse that is encouraged, sanctioned and even required by religious doctrine.

ruveyn



You're neglecting child abuse, which is encouraged, sanctioned, and required by christian doctrine.


Pleas explain how?



Tequila
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20 Mar 2012, 6:29 pm

DC wrote:
Hyperlexian, with all due respect I think you should get off your high horse and leave moderation of these topics to someone that is British because I'm afraid you are completely and utterly clueless about the situation in Britain and Europe with regard to Islam, integration, feminism and multiculturalism.


It really doesn't help matters at all. In fact, she's probably better off leaving these topics to others as potential abuse of power issues aside - you can't fairly moderate a thread with controversial political issues if you're a foreigner from a whole continent away with views on the integration/immigration policies of a country that you've never visited and are going against the majority of the people contributing who actually live in that country. Lecturing the people of a country she has never visited on their immigration/cultural policy - a policy she has no experience of, I might add - is the height of arrogance and self-righteousness if nothing else.

I propose a new mod from Britain or at least from Europe who has an idea of the cultural background who can stay impartial for these threads, else we're going to come up against this time and again.



Last edited by Tequila on 20 Mar 2012, 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2012, 6:33 pm

ok, here's the nitty gritty. a map that shows the rates of female homicide by country. and guess what? muslim countries that they have data for have fairly low rates of female homicide. have a look at some of europe and south america. it's quite a contrast.

http://www.genevadeclaration.org/filead ... 11_CH4.pdf

i wish there were statistics for more countries, but it's definitely an interesting snapshot.


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hyperlexian
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20 Mar 2012, 6:35 pm

Tequila wrote:
DC wrote:
Hyperlexian, with all due respect I think you should get off your high horse and leave moderation of these topics to someone that is British because I'm afraid you are completely and utterly clueless about the situation in Britain and Europe with regard to Islam, integration, feminism and multiculturalism.


It really doesn't help matters at all. In fact, she's probably better off leaving these topics to others as potential abuse of power issues aside - you can't fairly moderate a thread with controversial political issues if you're a foreigner from a whole continent away with views on the integration/immigration policies of a country that you've never visited and are going against the majority of the people contributing who actually live in that country. Lecturing the people of a country she has never visited on their immigration/cultural policy - a policy she has no experience of, I might add - is the height of arrogance and self-righteousness if nothing else.

I propose a new mod from Britain or at least from Europe who has an idea of the cultural background who can stay impartial for these threads, else we're going to come up against this time and again.

how was i moderating this thread? i believe i was contributing lol

EDIT: nah it's not serious enough to call me arrogant or self-righteous to warrant any reminders. surely you have bigger guns than that? it's becoming clear to me that you plan to go down in flames.

you're not reading my words though - i didn't ever give you any advice about immigration.


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20 Mar 2012, 6:38 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
Christians and Jews have been violent towards women but we do not tie them up and ripped their finger nails out when they paint them this happens in muslims countries.


There is abuse of spouse or girlfriend due to individual defect. Then there is abuse that is encouraged, sanctioned and even required by religious doctrine.

ruveyn



You're neglecting child abuse, which is encouraged, sanctioned, and required by christian doctrine.


Believe it or not there is a difference between abuse and spankings. Getting around that by keeping them topped off with pills is easily classified as abuse as well. The difference is that pills are tidier.



aghogday
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20 Mar 2012, 6:40 pm

Religion has little to nothing to do with crime or gangs among immigrants as reported in the last post by an Asian Muslim immigrant; it is more likely the result of living conditions, and what people will do to survive.

Cultural practices associated with patriarchy continue, and are strengthened by the tool of religion, however, the modification of these practices are more likely as one moves within a country of where the practices are not legal. It takes time.

The masculine domination against women is not specific as a religious phenomenon, the greatest insults are in Asian countries, where females suffer the lack of any right to live, largely as a result of overpopulation, and the scarcity of resources. The method of infanticide there as been reported as refusal of care when the female children are sick. Religion plays little to no role in this practice.

The following linked article gives a comprehensive view of the problem world wide. Interestingly the best place to live for women in terms of health and economic advantage are in the scandanavian countries. The Juxtaposition of reality for cultures that are mixing with immigrants that have had the poorest record, in this respect, is bound to cause serious multicultural problems.

Those cultures are those in the middle east and the subsaharan regions of Africa that are the source of the immigration conflicts.

The cultural effect is a serious conflict, and it is not suprising that those in these countries are fighting against that conflict where there was none before.

The melting pot of globalization and multiculturism, is necessary for any potential of an egalitarian world, but the likelyhood of success, considering human nature, may instead result in disaster.

The immigrant issues are minor in comparison to the problems that exist in countries, for those that want no part of the egalitarian world.

https://globalsociology.pbworks.com/w/page/14711227/Masculine%20Domination

And per the statistics below, the world is far from an egalitarian one.

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-discrimination/statistics-on-discrimination-of-women/



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20 Mar 2012, 6:43 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
domestic violence happens to non-muslim people too, and it is also swept under the rug. why aren't you speaking up for those women? here are some statistics for you to peruse, from your very own country:

i suppose you must find it easier to blame the big bad muslims while your own non-muslim countrymen are abusing their partners. if you're going to advocate for muslim women only, it clearly becomes a case of pushing your own anti-muslim agenda.


And yet again you completely ignore the point so that you can go off on a judgemental rant.

Here is the point:

Quote:
A PEW global attitudes survey a few years ago showed that more muslims in Britain supported violent Jihad than muslims in Pakistan (Self indoctrination on the internet is to blame for that).

A BBC survey this month showed that two thirds of muslim men and a big minority of muslim women think domestic violence is acceptable to preserve honour.

BBC again from a few months ago, while the majority of muslim men do not express support for muslim men raping white children the majority of muslim men blame the children for the crime because they all dress like whores.



Please try to read this bit slowly and let in sink in instead of responding in your usual knee jerk fashion.

When you do a survey of catholic men in britain, the majority of those men are disgusted that catholic priests have been abusing children.
When you do a survey of muslim men in britain, the majority of those men blame the children for dressing like whores.


When you do a survey about domestic violence in britain, in the native white population practically everyone regardless of sex condemns domestic violence.
When you do a survey of muslims in Britain the majority openly support domestic violence.


There is a world of difference between individuals behaving in a way that society finds reprehensible and a culture that demands reprehensible behaviour from it's members.

Do you understand that there is a clear difference between these two problems?



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20 Mar 2012, 6:46 pm

DC wrote:
When you do a survey about domestic violence in britain, in the native white population practically everyone regardless of sex condemns domestic violence.
When you do a survey of muslims in Britain the majority openly support domestic violence.


Of course, you're not allowing for what native white people actually do in private but for the love of Mohammed, that's a bit of an eye-opener.