Misogyny/MRA is a sign of weakness

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^^^
I have to say, I think that many have a deeply held core belief that marriage and serial monogamy go together, and therefore are unlikely (or really, really don't want to) to blame the institution of marriage, because in their minds it would be tantamount to blaming serial monogamy - even though, the two are really separate things that can exist together, or independently of one another.

Which is probably why when you bring up the marriage point - you are going to get some strong reactions.

And to Bluemax: know that your marriage is not the norm, not by a long shot. While I believe MRA's do bring some good points to the table that definitely need to be addressed, I do not think either the MRA or feminism will ever actually address them. We need to move beyond that if such issues are going to be addressed appropriately.

Or a lot of people are poorly choosing their partners in a marriage. There have been numerous marriages that have last and will continue so for our generation and future generations. Such statements as "no man in his right mind would ever get legally married" are quite cynical and are far from reality.

I am not stating marriage is perfect or encourage it for everyone ( I am an atheist that is not too found of churches but values the idea of commitment with someone they truly love and would actually like to get married in the future). I am just stating that there are many people getting married for the wrong reasons, and/or have other plans to sabotage the relationship. There are many good people out there that get married and stay with their partner until death.

Who do you think OWNS the divorce/family court systems? ...besides greedy lawyers, that is.

She gets a FREE lawyer for the last three years - I get billed $750 for legal aid just to look at my case and copy a few papers (no, they did nothing for me.)

It's no exaggeration. I had the court Dispute Resolution Officer, her lawyer and other officials laugh to man jokes at my expense right in the courtroom. That's about as brazen as it gets.


I've lost jobs from catty women spreading rumours or getting mad when I wouldn't sleep with them - even imprisoned from a BS accusation as a revenge act for not dating her in high school!

The whole court/legal/corporate system is geared from the bottom up to favour women in almost every circumstance. The only reason there aren't more female board members is because those mega-high positions are ALWAYS reserved for the cultural elite class which the average person can never attain on their own anyway. (Women in the elite class can choose between the huge power of the workplace, or the cushy life of shopping, society parties and bullying servants... often more appealing to them.)

That's my stance too... I hope I didn't cloud that in my frustration over how messed up things are.

Oh dear, you have had some bad turns.

Since we are speaking of personal matters . . . When my husband and I split up, I signed away all rights to our family home (against legal advice.) He had been the one paying for it, so I felt he should be the one who kept it. I moved out and made my way on my own. Just to give a differing example.

I think sometimes your frustration and emotions on the subject *do* actually lead many to a false assumption of your logical and ethical view on the matter.
Perhaps something to keep in mind when posting in forums other than The Haven.
Especially in L&D which is known for it's explosiveness - a little awareness of how you come across to others on this point might go a long way.

Unfortunately, I know both men and women in about equal numbers, who have been married, and totally screwed over by the court system during the divorce and custody proceedings.

You're not seriously going to suggest that women get screwed over in divorce as much as men do.

I know a woman whose husband dumped her. She was my neighbor. He got the house and 3 kids and pretty much everything. She was stuck living with relatives and paying child support and barely seeing her kids. She was pretty nuts though.

Many feel they do, but that's only because they're no longer as wealthy as they were before the divorce - they don't objectively compare their situation to their now-ex-husband who's living in a dumpy bachelor suite instead of the family home surviving on mac n' cheese in order to make astronomical child support and alimony payments.

Another user here furiously argued that women didn't benefit from divorce because their financial situation was worse than before. That's true. Look at the REST of the picture though... if she's got less than she's used to having - he's got way, way, waaaaaaaay less.


Of course, there's always the exception. I worked with a squirrely, odd woman who lost her kids in her divorce - deemed "unfit" - and some men still very wealthy even after the divorce... but they're the exception, not the rule.

...but, y'know... speaking of objectivity, I think I lost focus of my original view and the point of the OP. I don't think either feminists or MRA are going to ever succeed because their goals are to essentially "take from them and give to us" - and there's no stopping at the mid-point. Only rational round-table discussion is going to accomplish anything - but you can bet there's lots of folks on both sides of the fence unwilling to give so much of an inch of any "territory".

(That reminds me of mediation with the ex... we were given four sessions to try and work out some sort of common ground. All I wanted was proper visits with the kids, I was even willing to pay the full child support even though I wouldn't need to... nope. She wouldn't give up a thing. When the mediator finally told her that she couldn't continue the way she was and would have to give up something to begin moving toward the fair middle ground, my ex simply walked out never to return. Unfortunately, she gets all her support from a women's support group (name deleted) who claim to support abuse victims, but also gather together to support each other in the glorious attack against men, finding abuse where there is none, and extracting finances from men wherever possible. You should've heard one of their leaders brag about how she successfully demanded her ex-husband give her the children, house, and $40,000 lock-stock-and-barrel... and was already planning the next marriage to a gentle sucker with a nice house and big bucks!


Look - it's no surprise I don't like feminist groups like this that have no intent to be equal, but work to destroy men. THESE are the people I don't like. I have nothing against women in general... I even hope that someday I'll be ready to love a very special woman again. Someday. I still believe in marriage too... only with a little more caution than the first time.

I have seen some really nasty MRAs on the internet that I don't like, but I've also seen some pretty reasonable people. Topics that MRAs often talk about that I think are legitimate are:

Men have no reproductive rights
Men rarely get custody of children
Marriage is an arrangement that obligates a man to provide for a woman financially for life without any reciprocal obligations
A lot more resources go to women's healthcare even though men as a whole have much worse health
There are basically no social programs made for helping men even though nearly all homeless and incarcerated people are men
Women receive lighter punishments for equivalent crimes
2/3 of college graduates are women, but they still receive more financial aid
Single women make more than single men but they are still the only gender that can sue for sex discrimination

I think people instinctively think of women as being weak and defenseless and not responsible for their actions, so strange things happen when they try to mesh that with their conscious ideas about equality.

I'm not aware of any current feminist issues in western countries that are very serious. They talk about rape over and over again, but white women in western countries are actually by far the safest of all demographics. Really, you can look it up if you don't believe me, try the Bureau of Justice Statistics. If people really cared about reducing violence, then they would make a "stop the violence against black men act." Or maybe they wouldn't vote for any politician who supported US wars overseas.

And the pay-gap doesn't exist anymore. Young single women actually make more money than young single men, and when you account for work experience and education, they make more over-all at all age groups. 80% of consumer good are also spent on women, so I don't see how making more money is really such a good thing if you have to have longer work-hours to do it and most of your money is spent by somebody else.

And I think if people are really that upset about things like slut-shaming or goggly eyes, then they are p*****s. Obviously it's not very nice to do those things, but if men complained about how other people's behavior hurt their feelings, then they would be laughed at, and you know it.

Usually I really hate talking about this subject, because it makes everybody angry, and it doesn't help anything for me to think about this stuff all the time. But I didn't like how the original post made it sound like that you're a loser if you care about what happens to men. People always talk about how men are at the top of society, but if women are being oppressed because of that, then the majority of men who aren't CEOs or politicians are as well.

Thanks for your addition.
Everything you said is spot-on.

That's absolutely absurd.


Personal anecdotes don't negate the general trend.

Just because women everywhere complain men don't do enough housework doesn't make it true either.

IMO the problem is the "nuclear family". The financial precariousness of the arrangement is what makes it so nasty and bitter when it doesn't work out. I think humans are psychologically evolved to live and cooperate in groups much larger than pairs. Yea, we are more prosperous than ever before in terms of technology and the relative ease of survival, but we are also more psychologically vulnerable and isolated than ever. It isn't natural at all. We are BSed into thinking we are supposed to be well adjusted in such a world.

I'm not really interested in carrying on with this anymore. I figure I can't be too far off the mark if I manage to ruffle both feminists and anti-feminists, each group thinking I'm the other.

If you look where this started I was going after the claim that men being naturally harder working explains the wage gap. That came off as pretty misogynistic to me.

This thread is full of arguments that make no sense at all. This one just filled the cup.

If the issue raised if that men have a higher average salary because they're men or because they're more involved... what's the point with the house work? Now the company has to pay for the house work? What kind of BS is that? C'mon!

Those type of arguments are unworthy of a AS forum. They seem the classical used by neurotypicals ones.