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naturalplastic
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27 Jan 2015, 6:36 am

You gotta walk before you can run.

Lets start with "evidence" before we talk about "proof".

Even the religious admit that God is "elusive". That's why belief in God is called "faith".



AngelRho
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27 Jan 2015, 6:45 am

Fnord wrote:
It depends on your standards of proof.

If you're an empiricist, then there is no proof, since empiricism requires consistently repeatable demonstrations of principles unique to God. Miracles on demand, for example; say a certain prayer the same way each time, and another person is resurrected or has a lost limb regenerated. Since this does not happen, then there is norepeatable demonstration, so there is no evidence for the existence of God.

If you're a believer, then any coincident event, whether repeatable or not, would be sufficient proof.

But if you're a true believer, then you need no proof at all, because belief itself is all of the proof that you need. To a True Believer, you can't believe in something if it doesn't exist, so it exists if you believe in it (an empiricist would call this "circular logic" or "self-referential proof", and dismiss it as proof due to logical being a logical fallacy).

An atheist would likely dismiss the question entirely, as it pre-supposes the existence of God before the proof is presented.

Well said.

All reasoning is eventually circular, so a personal conviction one way or another relies on presuppositions.

Also, never once in the Bible was it ever said that God's presence was undeniable for everyone. God was physically manifested during the Exodus and people persisted in arguing over God's will, disobeying commandments, etc. God chooses not to force belief but lets us make up our own minds. I think even if we could call God down in such a way that his presence was incontrovertible, no single dedicated atheist would for a moment believe it. If you don't want God, you get no God.



badgerface
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27 Jan 2015, 6:58 am

"A god that does not manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist"

- Matt Dillahunty


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mr_bigmouth_502
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27 Jan 2015, 7:23 am

I'll believe it when I see it, which is kind of ironic since Christianity is all about "faith" and believing without evidence... Then again, if there is a god, I highly doubt it's Yahweh. It's probably a pantheon of some long-forgotten pagan gods.



AngelRho
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27 Jan 2015, 9:39 am

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I'll believe it when I see it, which is kind of ironic since Christianity is all about "faith" and believing without evidence... Then again, if there is a god, I highly doubt it's Yahweh. It's probably a pantheon of some long-forgotten pagan gods.

Well, that's just it. If the Bible is correct, and I believe it is, then people HAVE seen God, or at the very least some representation of God. They've been present when there was evidence and STILL didn't believe. I'm of the opinion that those who pay lip service to believing when they see it most likely won't.

To take a more materialist look at it, you can come up with all sorts of evidence for all sorts of things. There's tons of evidence for a geocentric view of our solar system. That doesn't magically make the geocentric view the correct one.

Essentially, "no evidence, therefore no God" is a false dichotomy. Carl Sagan wasn't a believer, either, but even he would say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I also dispute that Christian faith is predicated on blind faith alone. I think the evidence for our beliefs was documented and it is up to us to decide whether we find the evidence credible or not. I happen to not take issue with it. Not everyone is going to share my view.



luan78zao
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27 Jan 2015, 9:50 am

No.

Think of it: if there were actual evidence of the existence of a deity, he/she/it would then be just another part of the natural world, for scientists to study and analyze. Doesn't sound very divine.

All religious belief is faith: belief despite the absence of evidence.


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27 Jan 2015, 10:36 am

Faith is the belief in unprovable things.

Religion is the socio-political expression of faith.


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drh1138
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27 Jan 2015, 10:46 am

God is dead; the Enlightenment and nineteenth century did the poor bastard in.



aghogday
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27 Jan 2015, 11:41 am

Fnord wrote:
Faith is the belief in unprovable things.

Religion is the socio-political expression of faith.


Undressing CURTAINS IN LIGHT OF TRUTH NOW is not ALWAYS an easy thing to do.

I agree that many people look at Faith and Religion like THIS in BOTH historical and modern days,

PER Faith is the Belief in unprovable things and Religion is the Socio-political Expression of Faith

But Truly Faith is TRUST THAT RealITy makes sense AND HOW TO EMPLOY IT AS SUCH.

And Religion CAN be a device of human language that points to Truth.

And yes, once again, Religion and Faith in the Eyes and Falsehood of many folks
are simply ABSTRACT literary devices used to Oppress and Repress Human Nature
AND TO SUBJUGATE the herd for control through illusory FEARS.

So in other words:

Have faith in what I tell you OR ELSE.

So in other words:

Believe the tenants of this religion or go to prison
or POTENTIALLY BE KILLED.

THESE ARE the ways and RULE of human ignorance UPHELD.

The movie "The Book of Eli" illustrates the difference between those who uphold Truths
of Faith and Religion
VS the tool of Religion and Faith used to Oppress and Repress Human Nature
AND subjugate humans for control through Illusory FEARS.



Overall, the Political States of the Islam world STILL use Religion and Faith AS A TOOL this way.

But Western Countries are moving away from this sad STATE of affairs finally.

As I know YA KNOW. :)

My religion IS SIMILAR as my native American Indian Ancestors, per Sioux and Cherokee.

It is Dance and Song AND IT WORKS EXTREMELY WELL IN ALMOST ALL ASPECTS OF SUCCESSFUL HUMAN LIFE.

I HAVE FAITH IN DANCE AND SONG.

As metaphor:

First there IS Dark,
Then light,
Then movement or Dance,
Then sound or Song
Fueling movement from THEN ON
IN INFINITE POETIC EXPRESSION
OF REALITY AS IS.

TO DANCE AND SING IS TO REFLECT GOD.

AND a much better chance of connecting to HUMAN others.

And that my friend is my FAITH, Religion,

AND ENTIRE BIBLE in a NUT
SHELL
CRACKED SIMPLY OPEN.

JUST call me Master Chief Aghogday, HA! ha!
he HE!

AS linked here:

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2014/12/25/master-chief-aghogday/

And that's JUST a metaphor, of course; ALL OF THIS IN FACT.

IT WORKS for me, and that my friend IS ALL I NEED.

THE pursuit of Life, Liberty, and Happiness TRULY ONLY STARTS IN KNOWING
where one DANCES THE SONG OF LIFE PER LIGHT OF TRUTH
IN EXISTENTIAL INTELLIGENCE.

ALL IN just MY OPINON OF COURSE, on course, as IS, NOW, as WELL. ;)


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27 Jan 2015, 11:57 am

To each their own but I believe there is. In may I had a drug overdose and had 2 feet in the grave. I could not have made it out on my own.



AngelRho
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27 Jan 2015, 3:34 pm

bearded1 wrote:
To each their own but I believe there is. In may I had a drug overdose and had 2 feet in the grave. I could not have made it out on my own.

Indeed. It was a serious auto accident for me. Not that I didn't believe before, but if there are ever moments when I doubt, it all goes back to that moment and what happened. I don't think I could "unbelieve" what I believe even if I wanted to or tried.

I think believers who are the most tenacious in their faith sometimes have those apocalyptic, earth-shattering events in their lives that affirms their faith to such a degree that the mere suggestion that there is no God at all seems like the most bizarre, absurd concept they've ever encountered. If you demand evidence, they're, like, just look around. The whole planet and the whole universe IS the evidence. How can you not see that? I can't speak for everyone, but that's how my experience has been.

Every now and then I like to drop in and participate in discussions on the topic, but my life is such right now I can't really tangle with atheists like I really want to. But just going by what little I've observed, for some the notion of God or any god is unpleasant enough that they really, REALLY don't want for there to be a god/God. I'm fascinated by the idea that someone can close their mind so completely to even the possibility. I prefer not to get into arguments with them. Winning arguments doesn't win souls. If you are honestly seeking and you want some questions answered, you know where to find me. Otherwise, I got nuthin' but love for ya! ;)



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27 Jan 2015, 7:28 pm

aghogday wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Faith is the belief in unprovable things. Religion is the socio-political expression of faith.
<INSERT disjointed COLLAGE of WORDS here>
I want you to know that I have never read past the first line of any of your posts, nor am I likely to any time in the foreseeable future.


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aghogday
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27 Jan 2015, 10:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Faith is the belief in unprovable things. Religion is the socio-political expression of faith.
<INSERT disjointed COLLAGE of WORDS here>
I want you to know that I have never read past the first line of any of your posts, nor am I likely to any time in the foreseeable future.


No problem, I use Facebook AND REAL LIFE for social communication.

And I use this medium for monologues, and also as dark inspiration for much LIGHTER free verse poetry in avenues where folks appreciate it.

Works for me. ;)

I NEVER EVER EXPECT ANYONE TO READ WHAT I WRITE.

AND when they do it is fun too. :)

It MIGHT BE worth noting that I have almost a photographic memory for every single word I've both wrote and read on this Internet site. It is just another one of my Autistic Superpowers, before you suggest you haven't done something that you have proven otherwise to have already done on this site, in the irrefutable evidence of black and white text.

Knowing you the way I do, through WITH my highly DEVELOPED memory for text, I see it as highly unlikely, even with your own words, that you will admit you made a mistake.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=166108

Quote:
Fnord wrote:

While religion may provide a measure of social cohesiveness for primitive cultures, it's relevance as a social tool is likely less significant in a science- and reality-based society.

aghogday wrote:

I agree. However, it is evident that religion remains a social tool in non-egalitarian societies. Statistics provide evidence for this. While science is a significant part of Society in the US, it remains an overwhelmingly religious society.

Egalitarian societies in Europe have much lower rates of religious participation, but they also have far more social safety nets for their citizens, and National traditions for social cohesion. Evidently, many people in the US, find this in their religion.

There are many other potential reasons, but this is one that is clearly measurable.

Fnord Wrote:

No disagreement with this. It seems that the more altruistic, egalitarian, and socially-conscious a culture is, the less "need" there is for religion.

Religion is a form of mind control, using arbitrary doctrines to instill fear, to limit free thought, and to separate "Us" from "Them". These practices are antipathic to a progressive and free-thinking society.

When people are kept in a state of fear or anxiety, they are less likely to think clearly, and more likely to be controlled.

People should not be told what to think, but trained in methods of inquiry and reasoning instead. Religions do not encourage inquiry, unless it would expand on their particular mythologies, and a reasoning mind could easily find reason to discard religious doctrine as meaningless and un-necessarily restrictive.

Religious institutions may preach "Universal Fellowship", but the fine print always seems to define this as applicable only among like-minded believers. In truth, religions tend to divide the people against each other, based solely on apparent belief and public behavior. A person that asks questions, investigates claims, and proposes alternate concepts will soon find that his or her company is no longer sought by "true" believers, who will accuse the inquirer of everything from immoral behavior to mental illness.

In the current age, religious institutions may cause more harm than good.

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Fnord
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27 Jan 2015, 10:35 pm

Okay, change "never" to "rarely ever".

Do you have to use so many capital letters? It's ridiculous and makes reading your posts uncomfortably tedious.


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aghogday
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27 Jan 2015, 10:43 pm

Fnord wrote:
Okay, change "never" to "rarely ever".

Do you have to use so many capital letters? It's ridiculous and makes reading your posts uncomfortably tedious.


IT is a MODERN literary device that works for some folks and not for others.

Sorry you do not like it but it is my way of freely expressing myself per my OWN creative ZEN Art of writing.

And on top of that I did not invent it; I borrowed IT from a very successful marketing person who posted here a few years back.

And the ignore button works well, as well, if you like. :)

BUT never the less, you exceed my expectations by admitting your mistake, and that is cool to me, as I always love surprises.

Thank you, and have a nice now. ;)


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DentArthurDent
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27 Jan 2015, 11:08 pm

AngelRho wrote:
To the Christian, God is easily explained as transcendent, thus there is no need to prove that God exists. That God exists is axiomatic to our faith. So if we are able to reasonably conclude that there IS a God, there's no point in trying to prove what we already know.


WOW the ultimate get out of Gaol free card. Mind you I would like you to define "reasonable" in this context.

A better way to have titled this thread would be "Is there any evidence for the existence of God", and for that I can comfortably say NONE.

I am glad that science does not hold un-falsifiable axioms as a basis for knowledge.


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