Is there any proof God exists?

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And tonight ladies and gentlemen for your amusement and bewilderment, I present David, The Walking Talking Logical Fallacy.

Well... Yes and no, I think.
What I meant by that is that although God is considered an all powerful being (for those who believe) his power exists within an extent of "what is possible to do". I just used this approach as an example of one of the evidences that makes me see how God's existence is possible and makes sense.
I do not see Him as this weird old men who sits in a big throne in the sky and is there full of rage and pride ready to punish everyone who do not believe in Him. And if there is something that I agree with almost all of the atheists is that Christianism itself is the major cause of this image. As the years go by the image of God is more and more distorted by churches (or enterprises in most cases ) who likes to takes advantage of peoples faith, fear and blindness to mold Christianism as they want. But, as I stated before, the bad actions that people do is not a reason to do not believe in God. If someone drinks alcohol, drive and make a car accident I will not blame the alcohol I will blame the person.

Also I do not completely disbelief in science. Science studies how our natural world works and it understands it right! The difference is that, for me, it's not an unguided process that happened just because it could happens.
Scientists discover that the universe is expanding, so ok. By that they can logically assume that if it's expanding it probably was "compressed" before, ok. So if it was compressed before, at sometime it started to expand (or it exploded, aka Big Bang), ok. For me, this was exactly what happened! But it wasn't caused by a series of coincidences and physics laws that created themselves, but the consequence of a superior powerful entity that said "Let there be light". Then PUFF, Big Bang, Explosions, Expansion, Evolution... Everything happened but as fast as it could considering what the power of a God could do.

Something that I don't understand is why a lot of people assumes that there are only two reasons for someone to believe in God:
- Fear of going to hell
- A way to answer all of his unanswered questions
Why can't someone believe in God because it makes sense to him? Almost all the times that I join discussions about this subject I get answers like if I was a cave man who's mind is not opened enough to see the truth and this is so annoying.
I've seen atheists who defends theories about the universe with more pride and vigor THAN THE OWN CREATORS OF THOSE THEORIES! So many great minds of the scientific world assume that their theories as exactly this, theories, and still there are people who assume then as an ultimate truth and treat everyone who do not see the world the same way as them as close minded blind cave men and by acting like this they are as blind minded as those christians they criticise so much.
I at least accept that even God is a theory and through all of my posts I try my best to make this clear (I speak as if it exists, of course, because that's what I believe) but I do not completely discard the possibility of being wrong. I also agree that Christians A LOT of times do this exactly same thing (this topics is an example) and, believe me, it annoys me as much as it annoys any of you. I've met christians who I could barely talk because I knew that they have this judgmental vision that only sees God as someone who is ready to punish everyone who does not live the way THEY believe that is the right way to live, and this is something that I dislike too.

^ Wow a sensible answer from a person of faith, you and Kraichgauer should get along well.

No I do not think you are some form of cave man or lower intellect than I, far from it. The only difference between us is you think you have found the answer to causation and I am happy to say "I don't know". I am also happy to theorize that the existence of god is highly improbable.

I would say that I am bang on the money regards your belief, you see the laws of nature and agree with the science that describes them, but you then give nature purpose and direction which necessitates a sentient being to guide them, but you still restrict gods power within those natural laws. For me the laws of nature will eventually explain causation and as there is no evidence of design or direction I see no need to add god to the equation.

To my mind the way you and Kraichgauer think in comparison to me is a little like special relativity and causation. In special relativity causation can be changed provided the observers are so far apart that there is no way they can interact to exchange the information, eg one observer might see an event before it has happened relative to another observer. In the same way our differing views effect nothing on this earth, at least not yet. Therefore we should be able to live in peaceful co-existence.

My issue comes with those who would lie and fabricate knowledge and abuse young minds by indoctrinating them with pseudo science, who would deny my right to live because I do not share their faith, or who demand laws are based upon their religious beliefs eg Abortion, Homosexuality ect

Belief (in "god") is determined by what criteria the individual uses to decide if something is true or not above and beyond broadly speaking the 'obvious'; there are no arguments or debates over whether or not the sky is blue, fire burns or ice feels cold, for example.

Imagine 2 people eating a curry. One has a couple of mouthfuls and starts coughing, drinking water and sweating, saying "this is too spicy!" The other happily munches away and says "it's not really, I actually think it's quite mild". The spiciness of the curry is not a black and white fact; it's subjective; no matter how much evidence the second person produces to display that the curry is not as spicy as person 1 is indicating. Person 2 could produce lists of the spiciness grades of food, including that scale they use (I forget its name), they could give anecdotal evidence of when they ate a curry that had a warning label saying "extreme spiciness" without discomfort, and it wouldn't make a difference to person 1's personal experience and no matter how much person 1 is clearly in physical pain and describes a terrible burning sensation in his mouth, throat and insides, it remains down to the individual to decide and state how spicy the curry is.

Yes, there are widely accepted opinions and guidelines as to how hot curries are, as there are widely accepted theories and faiths about deities or lack of them, but just because person 2 can eat the whole plate without breaking a sweat, it doesn't mean that person 1, or 3, 4 or 5 etc etc can as well.

Some believe out of fear, some (many) believe because they were brought up in a religious environment and were indoctrinated from a very early age, some find faith in dark times of their life among countless other reasons they chose to believe; including "I just believe because it makes sense to me" and indeed "I choose to believe because I like it". None are any less valid or old any less value to the individual, but to others may appear very strong, or very weak reasons.

Personally, I choose not believe because I have never been presented with a reason that convinces me sufficiently that meets the criteria I would use to determine what may or may not be true - coming back to the question posed as the subject of this thread, because I feel the answer to that is "no".

This was nice to read and I completely agree with this:

If you don't mind, what does the expression "I would say that I am bang on the money regards your belief" mean? I'm not sure if I understood it right.



I agree about this too, and this is also valid to atheists where not all of them disbelieve because the lack of evidences (scientifically speaking).
About the curry metaphor you are also right, and what would be between the two cases (talking about believe in God now) would be simply faith.

Last edited by Andrejake on 12 Feb 2015, 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

When you're "bang on the money" about something, it means you are "right on target"--meaning that you have a perfect understanding of something.

Oh, I see. Thank you.

Ok put like that I think I need to rephrase, more accurately I would say I think I have enough of an understanding of your beliefs that I get what you are saying.

What is your idea of God is the question. If you think of Creation as God then yeah, the proof is all over. if you think of God as some giant man sitting somewhere watching all humans and that he created them special for his amusement, then no, He most likely is a figment of imagination.

This nature as God idea always has me a bit baffled. Do you think nature has direction and purpose and is therefore somehow sentient?

It's obvious God is intended as a creative force. The idea he is also a moral one is more of a literary device.

As I said before; my assessments of your integrity are not nonscience assumptions to prop up a demonstrably absurd ideology.

I cannot ignore the elephant (that nothing turns itself into everything) in your room (religious Materialism) just because you do not directly acknowledge it. If you want to "prove" that there is no elephant you'll need to supply some evidence that nothing can, does, did, turn into everything; or, at least, stop spouting an ideology that implies, infers, assumes, the elephant.

If you think you require my permission to say what you think and feel I will indulge you; the way is clear, I will not interfere with your keyboard... tell us what you think and feel.

The Nature as God idea is absurd because Nature is only Things behaving in an orderly, "natural" way. No Things = nothing to order, therefore no Nature. Nature cannot precede itself in order to create itself.

And yes, the Elephant CAN BE GOD, YNOT, and NOTHING TOO.

AND NOW YOU ARE thinking like a human with school, rather than an 'Elephant'.

I suggest you try 'Elephant', 'tHEy' have better, OVERALL, 'USED' genetic memory.

OR am I thinking like a human describing an elephant in stating that....

Here's the thing, all human beings have A GREATER POTENTIAL TO CONNECT GREATER TO THEIR SUB-CONSCIOus AND GENETIC MEMORY.

IN THAT genetic memory are stored the 'memories' of the Universe aka GOD, which includes MOST everything significant about the Universe, including how it COMES TO BE, P/E/R WHATEVER HAPPENED THAT IS BEYOND HUMAN COGNITIVE ABILITIES TO put that in words, or math, as of yet.

And to be clear, a very small percentage of that language of genetic memory is verbal OR MATH oriented.

So considering the ELEPHANT THAT IS GOD, AS METAPHOR PLEASE, HAS a really good memory expressed by humans who open up their minds in mind and body balance to become mindfully aware of more of potential human consciousness per subconscious potential is to simply BE A HUMAN PROPHET, anointed, messiah, or frigging whatever the abstract words constructed are used to DESCRIBE THAT, whether it IS folks of old, or that Lady who creates the Harry Potter books who IS extremely depressed and suicidal, IN MIDLIFE, motivating a journey, FROM DARKNESS, within, TO escape ILLUSIONS OF ABSTRACT HUMAN CULTURE THAT BRINGS A HUMAN EXPLOSION OF IMAGINATION AND CREATIVITY in words from within....IN HUMAN LIGHT!

YEAH, so if Adam, EVE, Noah, Confucius, Buddha, Muhammad and Jesus live today, maybe they will wrote THOSE HARRY POTTER BOOKS, INSTEAD, of what they did THEN.

OR create the Star Wars 'Seventology' in Written WAY or Stephen Lucas Movie way.

OK, now that we have THAT OUT OF THE WAY..

ON to some of the other metaphors of Universal truth, in that fictional fairytale the bible that houses UNIVERSAL TRUTH, THROUGH THE VEHICLES AND VESSELS OF METAPHOR.

YES, LIKE THE MYTHOLOGICAL SOLDIER GOD JESUS SAYS, IN CONSTANTINE AND EARLY Catholic Cohort twisting of the NT, to make him a soldier GOD, so Constantine CAN RIDE ON THE COAT-TAILS OF that and ERECT A MEGALITHIC SUN GOD STATUE OF HIMSELF, there ARE metaphorical sentiments that remain in the NT, CAUSE psychopathic leaning folks who literally think in concrete ways, CANNOT UNDERSTAND the 'SECRETS' OF METAPHORS WITH half of their emotional brain closed OFF TO A LOT OF THAT.

YES, TASTY LITTLE DEVICES METAPHORS ARE to skip RIGHT over the head of domineering power seeking psychopathic leaning folks, WHO ARE NOT LOVED BY THEIR MAMA WHEN they are little kiddies and DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FEEL OR GIVE LOVE, TO 'FEEL' UP THEIR 'SOUL', PER POWER AND MATERIAL THINGIES that just go into a bottomless pit, as the wiring for that is Not developed by Video Games, TV and whatever cold ways of parenting exist back in the days OF THAT JESUS DUDE.

PERHAPS Mary carried Jesus on her belly and breasts for the first two years of life, and that is WHAT CREATED 'A SAVIOR OF THE WORLD'.

So yeah, perhaps it is GREAT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CELEBRATES 'MOTHERS' LIKE THIS, AS THEY ARE THE TRUE CREATORS OF SACRED UNCONDITIONAL LOVE IN CHILDREN.

OK, THAT GETS another metaphor of Universal Truth out of the way, AND IN CLEAR VIEW.

HERE'S ANOTHER.

ANIMALS DON'T GO TO THE DOCTORS OUT IN THE WILD, do they.

They don't go to school, with books, do they.

They come equipped to heal themselves and fend for themselves in the wild to survive in the wild, with social cooperation, in synergy, with other social animals.

Back in them days of New Testament Lore, when the Old T is in DEMAND, people start to rely on a FRIGGING BOOK FOR SURVIVAL, RATHER THAN LOOKING WITHIN FOR HEALING AND SURVIVAL, in even ways as simple as defending themselves and SCREWING WHOMEVER THEY LIKE, PER INSTINCTUALLY FEELING LIKE 'DOING', conSENsuAlly as sUCH...

SO JESUS comes along, spends 40 days out in the desert, away from the culture of that time, and looks within and CONNECTS TO HIS GENETIC MEMORY, ALSO KNOWN AS ANIMAL INSTINCT AND INTUITION.

AND THEN HE EXCLAIMS, OH MY GOD! this is so FRIGGING SIMPLE, I ALREADY HAVE THE ANSWERS WITHIN, THEY AIN'T ALL IN NO frigging cultural bible book to RULE MY LIFE!

AND that's sort of what happened to THE AUTHOR OF THE HARRY POTTER BOOKS.

SO THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS, my friend of the OLDavid ways of thinking, THE NEWDAVID WAYS OF THINKING ARE HERE.

JOIN IN, AND JUST DO IT TOO..

OR STAY BACK..

IN THE

OLDEN DAYS.. OF DAVID THEN.

I ALREADY FIND MY MODERN SLINGSHOT, TO SLAY THE GIANT OF RELIGION, like Jesus did too.

HOW ABOUT YOU......

Perhaps a trip to the DESERT, WILL HELP.

Or, STAY 'WERE' YOU ARE, AND stagnate, or whatever you WILL TO DO, WITH RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL OR NOT.

GOD IS NOW AND THAT IS ALL ThERE IS TO IT.

IT'S SO SIMPLE, IT'S SCARY TO MOST FOLKS.

BUT WHAT A GIFT 'THE GOD OF ELEPHANT' PROVIDES PER OUR GENETIC MEMORIES, TO SURVIVE, AND BE HAPPY TOO.....

'i' 'JUST' 'DO' 'IT'.

'THAT' 'IS' 'ALL' i Need to DO.

'JUST DO GOD.'

THAT'S REALLY WHAT 'NIKE' MEANS.....

Ah.. dam restrictive editing thingy..

ForGET 'my' musciK video to better illustrate IN THE ART OF GOD..

THAT SLINGSHOT THINGY i AM talking about.....

And here IT IS..

IN Centuries....

past and present @

HERE.