usa is mass-killing people and nobody cares

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Sigh.....
To conquer Japan it was either;
A) Carry out a full scale land invasion of Japan and suffer more casualties, allied and enemy.
B) Nuke them with less civilian casualties and only a few allied casualties in the form of a small amount of allied POW's in the area.

Use the invasion of Okinawa as an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

They also didn't really understand nuclear fall out that well.

The question over the bomb is a moral question that still applies today:

1. Is it better to make a pre-emptive attack, which will result in civilian deaths on the basis that it will shorten the conflict, and result in less overall deaths?

or

2. Or be very careful to try and prevent civilian death ourselves, even though more civilians may end up dying as the other forces have no qualms about killing or hiding behind civilians.

Nowadays the appetite is more along the lines of 2. The, reason is the number of our own citizen effected is actually smaller, even though in these countries people are dying more often.

There has been a huge question over the ethics of drone attacks, even though boots on the ground may result in more overall deaths.

No, I don't think there is an easy answer either, mostly we are in 2 camp nowadays, but 1 is still a component sometimes.

What we have found is often we can do neither, we only sit they an let people kill each other en masse.

I used to live in Angola, that was a conflict that dragged on for 25 years. It killed more civilians that you can imagine. I bet half of you had never even heard of it.

If I wanted to pick a definitive mistake that the US made in recent history that hasn't been acknowledged, I would pick their contribution to that war, on the basis of fighting the cold war by proxy. US was extremely naive in support for Jonas Savimbi, even though it was never in their long term interests (read Cabinda Gulf)

The biggest mistakes the US made, particularly during the cold war, is treating so called Marxist regimes as somehow worse than any other kind of tyranny. The reality was the political system was often neither here nor there for the majority of the rural population. Savimbi was just a power hungry warmonger, who had no qualms about causing mass killings, and would had done anything anything to get in power, and he tried everything from tribalism, posing as a freedom fighter. The reason why Savimbi survived so long is he was Chinese trained and very smart, and was tactically brilliant. But also he was funded by the US, which prolonged the war by at least 10 years. Later he was funded by De-beers double dealing. It is well now well know they used front companies to deal in blood diamonds from both sides.

When the civil war finally ended and Savimbi was killed, all of the wanted warmongers, and former tyrants from all over Africa, turned up in Angola, it was like a safe have for them.

The biggest mistake the US makes isn't genocide, or exporting terror, is not really knowing what it is getting into, and making the same kinds of mistakes over and over, and thinking you can just throw more money and resources at the problem.

The US is slowly become more pragmatic about these conflicts, but it has had to be dragged kicking and screaming, because the cold war did really stupefy things, and it has stupefied US domestic politics too, and that legacy is still here today.

No, I don't think US deserves every criticism levelled at it, but PR wise it has issues, because of its perceived arrogance.

Arguably the biggest problem right now is Ukraine, and that is a problem for the whole of Europe, and the US. That is a situation where US legacy doesn't help because Putin is in wrong, however as I pointed out there is a new era of “vagueism”, which is effective propaganda. It actually not hard to convince people of a conspiracy. With the small word syndrome, and media hysteria, it is easy to spin that in the opposite direction. People don't know who the believe.

I know someone who a half Russian, half Ukrainian and a Russian speaker, and he supports the Ukrainian side. He spent his childhood, half the year in Ukraine, and half the year in Siberia and served in the soviet army. He gives me some good information on the situation, back home. It is sad for him, because it his own people killing each-other, there is nothing good or righteous about it.

Russian opposition to the war has been underplayed by Putin. They have been effective at muffling it.

The situation is getting unpredictable, especially Russia activities not just over Ukraine but over other territories.

I agree partly with my dad who is a former diplomat with experience during the cold war. There can't just be a military solution. You have to be firm, but at the same time, there has to be diplomatic efforts.

I think Iran is the elephant in the room.

Unlike most of the conspiracies, that is a real conspiracy, which is historically indisputable.

We, the British and the Americans, need to face up to our mistake for why the current regime eventually came to be.

We also can't claim that was about spreading democracy, because it was nothing of the sort.

We engineered, and offered funding and material support to a military, coup d'état. That installed a regime with brutal interior police and was deeply unpopular.

The reality is, however unsavoury dealing with Iran may be, it is in our long term interests to normalise relations.

Iran is not north Korea. Its internal politics is complex with many layers. Not all the layers are a hard-line conservative.

Those opposing nuclear talks, need a reality check.

The point is we can't owe allegiance too much to any of the regime in the region. We need a balance. We have an over dependence on the gulf states, who are theocracies of the same ideology (Salafi/Wahhabi) as groups like IS and Al Qaeda. So we have been indirectly funding them like it or not.

These state will cry foul with we start trading with Iran, but even if they find other trade partners, it is not in their interest to completely cease trading with the US.

Complete strawman. I don't think the USSR even at its most craven, sent people to gulags for not actively promoting communism. While its well documented that they did this to active reactionaries, they never imprisoned or persecuted the apolitical.

Implying that the cabalistic league of American corporations doesnt exploit the world for its benefit.

While we're on the subject though, I probably would regard the British empire as the lesser of two evils. At least it would have spread the values of fair play and subsidised health services rather than this laissez-faire cancer masquerading as 'freedom'.

I don't really see how either of these two are pertinent.

No, but then the USSR which you so villified earlier in this post did far more to aid the defeat of the nazis than America did.

No, it hasn't.


Oops too late

That definitely never happened in the USA. Mm. No political prisoners ever. Certainly not over opinions on communism.

(Look up the Smith Act - people were sentenced to up to eight years in prison for being members of the Communist Party, and up to 6 months for defending the Communist Party, which made it impossible for the accused to find legal representation)

America is in charge.

Deal with it.

You seem to take great pleasure in being a contrarian. I know a little a bit about the Chinese, and the culture in China post reforms, especially the one encouraged by the status quo, is not something you would be happy to live under.

As someone who is interested in various aspect of old Chinese culture, such as martial arts, wei qi, etc, nowadays, I really can't think of a culture that is so selfish as the Chinese. It is ironically the least Buddhist place you can be. They have a little Buddhist manly for show, but is heavily infiltrated with Taoism, and ancestor worship. The reality is one of the most status oriented places you could be, their religion so far as the practice goes is really just for the status again.

It is true the they have lifted a lot of people out poverty, but that is because the Moaist regime failed so badly on the front and before that it was basically feudalism, so they could have done much worse.

If you are looking for workers rights, equality community, free healthcare. China is not a the place the be. It is also land banking all over the world. Chinese colonialism is real, ongoing and not to be scoffed at. There have also been involved in more conflict than you think, and can be very aggressive. You might ask the Vietnamese.

I can tell you, you really don't know how lucky you are to have the right and benefits you have rights, now. How many countries have you lived in? Because I think you need to get out more.

Here in the USA, they will simply:

1. Ostracize you.
2. Say things like "Deal with it."
3. Not care about you.
4. Say there is no free lunch.
5. You're envious of the rich

and so on and on...

In other places like North Korea they will do three things

1. Torture you.
2. Imprison you.
3. Kill you.

Using Dante's Inferno as analogy

We have a choice of the 1st Circle of Hell or the 8th Circle of Hell. So, choose your hell.

Another analogy: It's a choice between Kang and Kodos on the Simpsons. Kang wants to enslave and Kodos wants to commit genocide. If one has only a choice between Kang and Kodos what do you pick.

You've peaked my interest. If you do not mind, will you go into this further? Is there a good source that you know of that I can read more about the Chinese culture if you don't mind telling me?

Would this statement be accurate? "You choose the Hell you live in."

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 05 Feb 2015, 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wise China man say

"yankee tears taste delicious"

I'm not a big fan of North Korea, but i know there is a 4. wherein families that are supportive of the regime actually get treated pretty well.

I would recommend googling 'Joe Dresnok'. You will see its far more nuanced that you think. I read an article a while back about a couple of South Korean citizens who sought refuge in the North to get away from crippling poverty on their own side. Not defending North Korea but i think our governments and media tell as many lies about them as theirs tell about us.

Last edited by thomas81 on 05 Feb 2015, 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

America may not be perfect, but I'm sure that it beats living in council housing in some Ulster slum.

Whats that? I can't hear you over the sound of my nationalised health care.

I looked him up and all I have to say is wow.

That is a big ask, have you heard their average news reports? Or how they describe their leaders?

I think I trust this man account better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Robert_Jenkins

The basis for North Korea is it is at war. That is how they justify the conditions, people live under. So any time they are ignored they have to generate conflict.

Even China is fed up with them.

Just because one man may or may not live like a prince in North Korea, doesn’t justify how their treat their people.

If there wasn’t such an issue there, NK wouldn't try so hard to keep what goes on there secret.
I

There are all sort of blogs an articles you can look up online regarding selfish behaviour. Google.

Probably the biggest example of what I'm talking of is how the Chinese officials, and families have behaved in response to MH370. They have behaved appallingly almost to to the extent that other victim of other nationalities don't matter, or are not important. They have tried to use bullying tactic to get that they want. Yet in fact they haven't done all that much to help. It is all image of outrage, and not real substance.

Personally I think part reason for this attitude, is the starvation caused by the “Great Leap Forward” fostered an every man for themselves attitude, to an extreme level.

Also Chinese are taught to self-censor on certain historical points and this is surprisingly effective. In a culture, where a particular image of China and the cultural revolution is important. Image become more important than reality. Even though they are no longer following Maoism, they cannot admit mistakes of the past. If you cannot admit mistakes, you cannot be wrong, and you cannot learn from your experiences. I think this contributes to selfishness, because despite lack of cooperation, questioning culture as result of the education they receive is a big no-no.

One of the myths about Tienanmen sq was it was pro-democracy protest. The number of pro-democracy protester were actually in a minority. It was actually a anti-corruption, and anti-reforms protest. These were people looking for a less selfish attitude. The problem is Chinese hsitory cannot be wrong, especially for those that write it.