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L_Holmes
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14 Aug 2016, 10:20 am

adifferentname wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
If she does genuinely remember that, I think her mental stability is in question. Who remembers being shot at when in fact they were not being shot at? That would be a pretty strong and particular detail about any memory.

That's how memory works - it's really easy to fabricate one. Lots of people have gone to prison because otherwise-stable adults have been convinced that they were abused as children and have testified to that effect in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_t ... _technique


Yep, our memories are fluid. The act of remembering something effectively alters the memory, which calls into question all testimony ever given under oath. Your memory is malleable enough that it is entirely feasible to (e.g.) utterly convince yourself that you personally witnessed a plane smashing into the side of a building, even if it can be demonstrated that you were hundreds of miles away from the building on that particular day.

Just because it's feasible doesn't mean it's likely, and it certainly doesn't mean you should excuse false statements from public figures on that basis. That is utterly ridiculous.

Even if it really was truly a false memory, it demonstrates that Hillary Clinton is likely prone to memory problems. I don't want a person who casually blames a convenient fabrication on sleep deprivation like it's nothing to be running the country. The President should have the cognitive ability to recall events accurately. Why does this even have to be said?


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adifferentname
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14 Aug 2016, 6:11 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
Just because it's feasible doesn't mean it's likely, and it certainly doesn't mean you should excuse false statements from public figures on that basis. That is utterly ridiculous.


Nobody excused anything on that basis. You were being offered an interesting sidebar.

Quote:
Even if it really was truly a false memory, it demonstrates that Hillary Clinton is likely prone to memory problems. I don't want a person who casually blames a convenient fabrication on sleep deprivation like it's nothing to be running the country. The President should have the cognitive ability to recall events accurately. Why does this even have to be said?


Whilst we all have inaccuracies in our memories, I would certainly consider Clinton to be less suitable on the basis of her conviction regarding her recall of those events. Then again, I had no desire to see her seated at the big table in the Oval Office to begin with.

LKL wrote:
1)Myths teach us, as children, what to look out for or what is good and moral. Basically half the population had no cartoon role models when I was I child. Kudos to Power-Puff girl superheroes.


Some questions:

Are you of the opinion that male cartoon characters can't be role models for girls?
If not, why?
How important are "cartoon role models" to child development?
Who was the smartest member of the Scooby Gang?
Didn't you watch Inspector Gadget? Penny kicked ass!



LKL
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19 Aug 2016, 12:40 pm

L_Holmes wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
If she does genuinely remember that, I think her mental stability is in question. Who remembers being shot at when in fact they were not being shot at? That would be a pretty strong and particular detail about any memory.

That's how memory works - it's really easy to fabricate one. Lots of people have gone to prison because otherwise-stable adults have been convinced that they were abused as children and have testified to that effect in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_t ... _technique

She said they were being shot at, they were told to duck their heads and run to their cars, there was no greeting ceremony, "now that is what happened". All a fabrication. She later admitted she "misspoke" when asked about it; she claims she was just sleep deprived. I've never heard of sleep deprivation creating a totally false memory, containing details that directly contradict what really happened, but that simply vanishes after a good night's sleep. It's quite convenient that she had this temporary false memory right at a time where she could embellish her character with it. At any rate, an experiment that convinced a minority of people to believe a vague false memory from their early childhood is not comparable to this.

By your logic, nobody should have gotten mad at Donald Trump and called him a liar when he said he saw thousands of Muslims cheering in the streets on 9/11. They should just give him the benefit of the doubt, and just ignore this false story, because "that's how memory works", right? The funniest part about that is that Trump's claim is actually more accurate than Hillary's. There were some Muslims in America who were seen celebrating the events of 9/11, though it wasn't thousands. The left has tried to cover this up of course.


It is also easy to conflate two memories - for example, being shot at during some other time added to the original memory. Crisis moments aren't actually any more stable than other memories; for example, I clearly 'remember' watching the towers fall on tv with my housemate on the morning of 9/11, despite the fact that I was chronologically at my university in chemistry lab at that hour (which I also remember :wink: ). That doesn't make me crazy; it makes me a normal human, at least with regard to my memories.

WRT Trump's 9/11 memories, there have been films of muslims celebrating after terrorist attacks - though not in Jersey. His problem wasn't that he misremembered, it's that he stuck by his false memory even after it was shown that it couldn't possibly be true. He and his ilk are like the Bush 2 staffer who mocked a reporter for being a member of the 'reality-based community,' as if the content of their own brains was more solid than the real world; it's a strange sort of postmodernism or relativism, I guess.



LKL
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19 Aug 2016, 12:49 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Some questions:

Are you of the opinion that male cartoon characters can't be role models for girls?
If not, why?

Sometimes they can be, but if all of the role models are boys, and all of the pathetic characters are girls (or the vast majority), then what does it tell the kids? If you want to emulate a roll model, you have to act like a boy.

Again, though, if the dichotomy has changed since I was a kid (at least wrt cartoons - it still seems to be the same in movies), then I have no complaints to make any more :)

Quote:
How important are "cartoon role models" to child development?

I don't know, for the general audience. I do know that I eschewed anything remotely feminine until my mid-20s because I didn't want to be weak and pathetic; at that point, I joined a dojo with some really kickass women senseis who were unafraid to wear dresses and be nice, and my world opened up.

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Who was the smartest member of the Scooby Gang?

Ehhh... ?

Quote:
Didn't you watch Inspector Gadget? Penny kicked ass!

[/quote]
Actually, yes: I do remember that one. A bright spot.



L_Holmes
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19 Aug 2016, 1:38 pm

LKL wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
L_Holmes wrote:
If she does genuinely remember that, I think her mental stability is in question. Who remembers being shot at when in fact they were not being shot at? That would be a pretty strong and particular detail about any memory.

That's how memory works - it's really easy to fabricate one. Lots of people have gone to prison because otherwise-stable adults have been convinced that they were abused as children and have testified to that effect in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_t ... _technique

She said they were being shot at, they were told to duck their heads and run to their cars, there was no greeting ceremony, "now that is what happened". All a fabrication. She later admitted she "misspoke" when asked about it; she claims she was just sleep deprived. I've never heard of sleep deprivation creating a totally false memory, containing details that directly contradict what really happened, but that simply vanishes after a good night's sleep. It's quite convenient that she had this temporary false memory right at a time where she could embellish her character with it. At any rate, an experiment that convinced a minority of people to believe a vague false memory from their early childhood is not comparable to this.

By your logic, nobody should have gotten mad at Donald Trump and called him a liar when he said he saw thousands of Muslims cheering in the streets on 9/11. They should just give him the benefit of the doubt, and just ignore this false story, because "that's how memory works", right? The funniest part about that is that Trump's claim is actually more accurate than Hillary's. There were some Muslims in America who were seen celebrating the events of 9/11, though it wasn't thousands. The left has tried to cover this up of course.


It is also easy to conflate two memories - for example, being shot at during some other time added to the original memory. Crisis moments aren't actually any more stable than other memories; for example, I clearly 'remember' watching the towers fall on tv with my housemate on the morning of 9/11, despite the fact that I was chronologically at my university in chemistry lab at that hour (which I also remember :wink: ). That doesn't make me crazy; it makes me a normal human, at least with regard to my memories.

WRT Trump's 9/11 memories, there have been films of muslims celebrating after terrorist attacks - though not in Jersey. His problem wasn't that he misremembered, it's that he stuck by his false memory even after it was shown that it couldn't possibly be true. He and his ilk are like the Bush 2 staffer who mocked a reporter for being a member of the 'reality-based community,' as if the content of their own brains was more solid than the real world; it's a strange sort of postmodernism or relativism, I guess.

Hillary wrote about the event accurately before the false account was given, so it is highly unlikely that she simply remembered a whole new story all because she missed a few hours of sleep.

I personally think she was just trying to embellish the story to look like the brave politician who goes into active war zones and has to duck under direct gunfire. But can you not at least agree that when a politician is giving false accounts about events they personally experienced, there is some cause for suspicion? Your false-memory theory is just speculation, just as my embellishment theory is. But my theory is more likely, because at least in my story she has some motive to lie about it, and then to just blow it off later, blaming it on "sleep deprivation". Given her track record, I'd say that is a fair possibility.

You are arguing for the possibility that she simply forgot what really happened for a day, and then remembered it again the next day. Do you honestly think that's even slightly likely? Your example about 9/11 would only be comparable to this if you, for a day or two, remembered being there and watching it in person, and then the next day realized you were in fact not there, but in the chemistry lab. Then you would have to determine that the cause of this was sleep deprivation. I don't believe such a thing has happened to anybody, unless they had some other mental problem.

The thing is, Hillary didn't remember some innocuous details wrong; she "remembered" the entire event wrong. Her account was completely contradictory to what really happened. She said there was no greeting, and yet there is video of her smiling and shaking hands with people. Kinda like she was greeting them. Also, she said there was gunfire, and that they were told to keep their heads down and run to their cars, when nothing like this was happening at the time. It doesn't make any sense, unless she is mentally ill, or lying. I don't like either of those qualities in a presidential candidate.


_________________
"It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."

- Sherlock Holmes