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ltcvnzl
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17 May 2017, 9:33 pm

I have a lot of doubts on racism – for a context, I'm from Brazil, although we do have lots of diversity and a society which was basically based on racism there is little and very hypocrite discussion on it. For one side people will just pretend it's a past thing and "everyone is mixed here, anyway" or on other side people will import a model that erase mixed-race people (which is the majority of the country) and any kind of subtlety.

I do believe that there is racism nowadays, but I don't agree on how most people put it. I feel it's quite unfair how most of black activists treat mixed-race people, when it's convenient to them, they will consider them black, when it isn't, they become white or anything else. We can't adopt a black and white model because, well, we aren't a black and white society.

Anyway, that isn't much what I wanted to talk. One thing I always wonder is how this race dynamic repeat itself in local and global scale. I mean, here I'm undoubtedly white (someone like Ronaldo would be considered white here, anyway), and I assume I have some privileges from it. But who the world sees me? Is it right to ignore the fact that even if I'm white, I'm not so privileged because I'm from 3rd world? And also, until which limit can we measure if a lot of we take as racism isn't just prejudice agaisnt 3rd world? (I thought about that seeing that photo-series in Oprah's magazine, they are inverting roles as white people as main things, for example, a white girl looking at a store full of black dolls or white woman doing manicure on asian woman).

Also, I never understood what USA means by latino. Is it a race? Is it everyone who is from latin-origin language countries? Would you consider someone like Gisele Bundchen non-white? Isn't the prejudice in USA more strong about your origins instead of your skin color/race?

To be honest, one of the reasons I never wanted to visit the USA was because I was afraid of suffering some kind of prejudice. It makes me an awful person who likes my white privilege?

On europe, I think mostly people considered me white, but I'm not sure and I was always a bit worried about it? Maybe I am very racist? I have european origins, but I'm mostly portuguese (and one austro-italian grandmother), do I worry about it too much because I'm from a 3rd world country and I maybe want to identify myself with a more developed scenario? (I think this is yes because I hate my country). My ex-boyfriend was european and really white, blue eye, very blond hair and I felt a bit bad about myself with him sometimes, like I was inferior or something.



naturalplastic
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18 May 2017, 3:48 pm

Wow!

A lot of issues here.

But as vast and complex as it is what you're talking about boils down to one simple thing: trying to cure Latin America of the Anglo American version of a disease, by using Anglo American medicine.

The disease is USA style racism (Latin America is at least as racist as Anglo America, but Latin racism works quite differently than American style racism).

And the attempt to cure using American style civil rights movement may not quite work. you're raising important questions which need to be answered if Brazil is continue to progress towards lasting democracy IMHO.

BTW Don't worry about visiting the USA. No one is going to give you problems during a short visit. If you were young, male, had tattoos, and looked latin, and drove around town at odd hours of the night, yes- the cops would hassle you. But a young lady tourist would be fine.

First "What is 'Latino', and for that matter "what is "Hispanic"?

Latino simply means "from Latin America". The word "Hispanic" means basically the same thing. Both terms should be replaced by the term "Ibero American" IMHO . Because both simply means "you are from the parts of the New World that were colonized by either Spain, or by Portugal" (the two countries on Europe's Iberian Peninsula). That as opposed to the USA and Canada which were colonized by Britain, and are called "Anglo America".

"Latino" is kind of an old colloguial term used by the parents of my Boomer generation."Hispanic" is basically just a box you check on government forms, and on public school forms, to self identify yourself by "race". But obviously neither term is a "race". In the USA if you're not White Anglo of European descent, and you're not an English speaking Black who was descended from pre Civil War slaves, then they have to throw you into some other category. So they US govt. just invented "Hispanic" as a catch all for folks who came up from the Tropics and speak in Latin based languages. So in my growing up the choices were "Black, white, and Hispanic" even though "Hispanic" isn't really a "race" in a way that's comparable to Black and white.

But now in the 21st Century the US is getting even more immigrants from more varied regions. So the old Black-White dichontomy is becoming further obsolete.

So both Latino, and Hispanic, are cultural/linguistic categories. The US is the only country that even uses the term "Hispanic". Neither is a "race" since obviously both categories include Argentinians (mostly White Italians), Dominicans (mostly Black or Mulatto), and Mexican (mostly Mestizo- white and Amerind mix). What the the nationalities lumped under "Hispanic" have in common is language and culture (Spanish, or Portugese, and the Iberian culture of the colonial founders of the the new world countries).

Racism in Brazil, and racism in the US for most of its history "work" differently.

I have heard and read (you can confirm, or not) that in Brazil you have the saying "money bleaches".
It means that as an individual rises in society (in income and or in social status) somehow magically...the person's race also changes ...changes toward the lighter end of the scale. You might start off Black, progress into Mulatto, and who knows...you might even morph into White ...in the eyes of society if you get rich and successful enough. Lol!

That flexible notion of "race" would be totally alien to the US way of thinking for racists and for anti racists alike.

The US equivalent to "Money bleaches" would be "the one drop rule".

The southern states of the USA after the Civil war and before the mid 20th Century modern civil rights movement had racial segregation that was enforced by law. This was what we call "the Jim Crow" era.

In that era they had to legally lay out and define what "Black" and "White" meant (if you're gonna have racially based laws you gotta define what the races are). In most of the southern states if you had one sixteenth, (and in many cases one 1/32 black ancestry) you were legally defined as "Black".If you had 15 great great grand parents who were White, and one GGP that was Black you were legally defined as "Black". The law was an expression of the general attitude of the time.

Also in the Anglo America up until the late 20th Century there was no "mixed". It was all-or-nothing. You were either Black, or White. Mixed racial folks were not a socially recognized category. Terms like Mestizo, and mulatto, were not really used.

That is why Obama is considered "America's First Black President".

In Brazil, and in the Dominican Republic, Obama (Kenyan Dad, White American Mom) would not even be classified as "black", but as "Mulatto".



friedmacguffins
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19 May 2017, 3:42 pm

If I understand correctly, South Americans believed in 'hybrid vigor'.

North Americans believed in 'the one drop rule,' in which hybrids can never be back-bred to their original parentage.

High minded and fair-skinned brown people were called "high yellows."

Central America was philosophically, as well as geographically, in between, having believed in white superiority, but on a spectrum of different complexions. Mixed, but still light-skinned, people could have high status. Natives were persecuted, but not as bad as blacks, to the south, portrayed in their comics as monkeys in coconut bras and grass skirts.

As sjw's like to report on me, I am assuming -- out in the open, and where everyone can see me -- that this is all pejorative.



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19 May 2017, 4:42 pm

Latino is essentially an ethnicity. A cultural group defined by a common language, with some racial admixture, if there is such a thing.

This concept of "latino" has arises due to racism itself. As you know, most "latin" countries in the new world were colonized by Spain and Portugal, which implemented race based class systems, with Europeans (whites) at the top, and indigenous people at the bottom. Most "latin" individuals today are actually "mestizo". They have some admixture of European and indigenous heritage, sometimes, particularly in the case of Brazilians, with some African as well. The European colonists and their race based class system, deeply ingrained in the populace the idea that indigenous people were inferior, and thus even today it's considered insulting in Mexico to be called an "indian". As such, a large segment of the population, even with significant indigenous heritage, distances itself from their indigenous heritage and are often keen to consider themselves white.

This begs the question, how white does someone have to be to be considered white?

I don't have the answer to that. But I'm an ashkenazi jew....we are largely European but with near and middle eastern admixture that causes a prevalence of phenotypical features not found among non-Ashkenazi Europeans, and in my experience, regardless of heritage, and with the exception of certain white supremacists, a person is considered white if they "look white". Apparently, I "look white" but my sister "looks jewish" and my cousin "looks Arab".

Anyway I would not worry about these things. If someone can't appreciate you for who you are as an individual then they don't deserve you in their lives.



naturalplastic
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19 May 2017, 5:16 pm

[quote="Chronos"]Latino is essentially an ethnicity. A cultural group defined by a common language, with some racial admixture, if there is such a thing.

This concept of "latino" has arises due to racism itself. As you know, most "latin" countries in the new world were colonized by Spain and Portugal, which implemented race based class systems, with Europeans (whites) at the top, and indigenous people at the bottom. Most "latin" individuals today are actually "mestizo". quote]

Not exactly.

Most "Latinos", or "Hispanics", are either Mestizo, OR they are Mulatto (depending upon the country of origin).

In some countries in Latin America the indigenous were obliterated early on, and they had to import African slaves. In others the large Indian population became the base of the social pyramid upon which Whites ruled. In the former (Dominican Republic, Cuba,most of the Caribean and the OP's home of Brazil) few are "mestizo" and most are "Mulatto" (black and white mix). But in the later cases (Mexico, Peru, Central America) most people are indeed "Mestizo". In Haiti they are mostly Black, and in Argentina and Uruguay most folks are mostly White.



naturalplastic
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19 May 2017, 5:29 pm

Chronos wrote:
Latino is essentially an ethnicity. A cultural group defined by a common language, with some racial admixture, if there is such a thing.

This concept of "latino" has arises due to racism itself. As you know, most "latin" countries in the new world were colonized by Spain and Portugal, which implemented race based class systems, with Europeans (whites) at the top, and indigenous people at the bottom. Most "latin" individuals today are actually "mestizo.


Not exactly.

Most Latin folks today are EITHER "Mestizo", OR they are "Mulatto". Depends on what part of Latin American they came from.

If they are from places like Mexico, or Peru, which had large native populations to support the Spanish rulers (who tended to be male only bands of Conquistadors - and not families like the North American Pilgrims) then yes- they are mostly Mestizo.

In places like the Caribbean islands (Dominican Republic, Cuba, etc) the indiginineous population died out early on, and the White over lords had to import huge numbers of slaves from Africa. So in places like the Dominican Republic, or in the OP's home of Brazil Mestizos are rare and most of the population is Mulatto. Though in both types of Latin countries you have much the same BS about tying status to color (Black or Indian on the bottom, mixed in the middle, White on top).



Chronos
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19 May 2017, 11:26 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Latino is essentially an ethnicity. A cultural group defined by a common language, with some racial admixture, if there is such a thing.

This concept of "latino" has arises due to racism itself. As you know, most "latin" countries in the new world were colonized by Spain and Portugal, which implemented race based class systems, with Europeans (whites) at the top, and indigenous people at the bottom. Most "latin" individuals today are actually "mestizo". quote]

Not exactly.

Most "Latinos", or "Hispanics", are either Mestizo, OR they are Mulatto (depending upon the country of origin).

In some countries in Latin America the indigenous were obliterated early on, and they had to import African slaves. In others the large Indian population became the base of the social pyramid upon which Whites ruled. In the former (Dominican Republic, Cuba,most of the Caribean and the OP's home of Brazil) few are "mestizo" and most are "Mulatto" (black and white mix). But in the later cases (Mexico, Peru, Central America) most people are indeed "Mestizo". In Haiti they are mostly Black, and in Argentina and Uruguay most folks are mostly White.


Yes, mulatto was another term in the race based class system. I refrained from using it and simply mentioned African admixture in it's place because many in the U.S. find the term offensive. For those who are interested in the "casta" system for historical purposes, here is how different people were classified in Mexico.

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