The dangers of Atheism

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Lecia_Wynter
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26 Apr 2023, 4:38 pm

Fnord wrote:

You make atheism seem like a bad thing.

Have you never heard of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The Westboro Baptist Church, or the Branch Davidians?

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.

Everyone knows the pitfalls of religion already, the topic has been done to death by Richard Dawkins and historians.

Atheism is a relatively new phenomenon and the social effects are unexplored.

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26 Apr 2023, 7:52 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:

Fnord wrote:

You make atheism seem like a bad thing. Have you never heard of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The Westboro Baptist Church, or the Branch Davidians? With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.

Everyone knows the pitfalls of religion already, the topic has been done to death by Richard Dawkins and historians.

Then your thread might be better off with the subject line "The Dangers of Atheism and Religion".

Lecia_Wynter wrote:

Atheism is a relatively new phenomenon and the social effects are unexplored.

The first recorded belief systems not centered on the idea of deities (e.g., Atheism) originated in the sixth century BC (600-500 BC) with the rise of Indian religions such as Jainism, Buddhism, and various sects of Hinduism in ancient India, and of Taoism in ancient China. Philosophical atheist thought began to appear in Europe and Asia in the sixth or fifth century BC. Is atheism "relatively new"? Maybe, depending on how far back in recorded history you go and how you define "Atheism".

Historically, any person who did not believe in any deity supported by the State was fair game to accusations of atheism, a capital crime. Charges of atheism, heresy, and impiety have often been levied as political tools to eliminate enemies.

Right now, a wave of Christian Nationalism is flooding American thought with the idea that non-Christians should not be allowed into the country, and that those already in residence should not be allowed to vote, hold jobs, or enjoy the same civil liberties that Christians enjoy. There are die-hard fundamentalist Christians (I have met a few) who believe that America is of the Christians, by the Christians, and for the Christians . . . and that non-Christians do not even qualify as people.

Calling atheism 'dangerous' moves us one step closer to their ideology, when atheism really is nothing more than an absence of belief in the existence of one or more supernatural deities.

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27 Apr 2023, 5:06 am

Fnord wrote:

Have you never heard of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, The Westboro Baptist Church, or the Branch Davidians?

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion.[/color]

Have you heard of Pol Pot and Stalin...
All it takes is ideology. Religious ideology or atheist ideology. Either will suffice.

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27 Apr 2023, 5:14 am

DoniiMann wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Have you heard of Pol Pot and Stalin...
All it takes is ideology. Religious ideology or atheist ideology. Either will suffice.

Atheism is not an ideology. It's an absence of belief.

Pol Pot and Stalin had harmful political ideologies which explain their behavior. They did not behave the way they did because they were atheists.

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27 Apr 2023, 5:48 am

I suppose I'm quite unusual as I was brought up as a strict atheist. I've never learned about religion apart from at school. But various experiences over my life have made me believe there is some kind of higher power somewhere, I'm not sure what.

However, I have also learned that life is random. There is no great plan for us, it is the luck of the draw where we live and how we live. It's up to us to find meaning and fulfilment in our own lives before we randomly die.

I think of it like God or whoever sets us off like clockwork toys and then leaves us to play til our mechanisms run down.

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Lecia_Wynter
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27 Apr 2023, 9:09 am

Quote:

Then your thread might be better off with the subject line "The Dangers of Atheism and Religion".

No, because the that is outside the scope of this thread.

Quote:

Most of that is outside the scope of this thread. This thread is about the dangers of atheism not the dangers of religion. If you have a strategy you want to build against the dangers of organized religion, that is better suited to another thread.

Quote:

Hmm. I don't quite follow the logic that the existence of Aliens would imply a higher power. However, I have heard others argue that a lack of Aliens is proof of a God.

If aliens have ufo tech then they have more power than us.

Quote:

I’m an atheist and don’t find the world or universe bleak or mundane.

Could be a phenomenon of atheist congregation and priests. The atheist congregation may be unaware of the core of atheism, while the priests of atheism are aware of this core.

Deep down, the core truth of atheism is that life only exists to consume and reproduce. If there is an atheist who reads fiction, fantasy about magic, etc. then they are simply ignoring the core of atheism. For example if someone is invested in a fantasy novel they are not atheists while reading the novel, they temporarily become believers of the novel then back to atheists when they are no longer thinking about the book.

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27 Apr 2023, 9:14 am

Carl Sagan:

Quote:

What an astonishing thing a book is. It's a flat object made from a tree with flexible parts on which are imprinted lots of funny dark squiggles. But one glance at it and you're inside the mind of another person, maybe somebody dead for thousands of years. Across the millennia, an author is speaking clearly and silently inside your head, directly to you. Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people who never knew each other, citizens of distant epochs. Books break the shackles of time. A book is proof that humans are capable of working magic."

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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 27 Apr 2023, 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

TwilightPrincess
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27 Apr 2023, 9:15 am

Carl Sagan:

Quote:

Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.

Quote:

The Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be. Our feeblest contemplations of the Cosmos stir us -- there is a tingling in the spine, a catch in the voice, a faint sensation, as if a distant memory, of falling from a height. We know we are approaching the greatest of mysteries.

Sagan was an atheist. His outlook doesn’t seem very bleak or mundane to me. It’s certainly less bleak and mundane than my outlook was as a conservative Christian.

Your conception of atheism does not reflect the experience of all (or probably even most) atheists.

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27 Apr 2023, 12:37 pm

Lyrics From "Symphony of
Science" As The 'Choir Sings'

"[deGrasse Tyson]
We are all connected;
To each other, biologically
To the earth, chemically
To the rest of the universe atomically

[Feynman]
I think nature's imagination
Is so much greater than man's
She's never going to let us relax

[Sagan]
We live in an in-between universe
Where things change all right
But according to patterns, rules,
Or as we call them, laws of nature

[Nye]
I'm this guy standing on a planet
Really I'm just a speck
Compared with a star, the planet is just another speck
To think about all of this
To think about the vast emptiness of space
There's billions and billions of stars
Billions and billions of specks

[Sagan]
The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it
But the way those atoms are put together
The cosmos is also within us
We're made of star stuff
We are a way for the cosmos to know itself

{i'm Adding This Bit Now; 'Jesus Christ' Per Story:

"The Father And i are one;" Understanding Metaphor,

Beyond the Literal; True, Describing This in a Similar Panentheistic
Way Historically in Fact And Myth As Sagan; Hindu Krishna By Story;
And How Catholic Mystic
Richard Rohr Does too}

Sagan Continuing:

Across the sea of space
The stars are other suns
We have traveled this way before
And there is much to be learned

I find it elevating and exhilarating
To discover that we live in a universe
Which permits the evolution of molecular machines

As intricate and subtle as we

[deGrasse Tyson]
I know that the molecules in my body are traceable
To phenomena in the cosmos
That makes me want to grab people in the street
And say, have you heard this??

(Richard Feynman on hand drums and chanting)

[Feynman]
There's this tremendous mess
Of waves all over in space
Which is the light bouncing around the room
And going from one thing to the other

And it's all really there
But you gotta stop and think about it
About the complexity to really get the pleasure
And it's all really there
The inconceivable nature of nature"

"In an interview with "Big Think," Tyson said,
"So, what people are really after is what is my
stance on religion or spirituality or God, and I would
say if I find a word that came closest, it would be 'agnostic' ...

at the end of the day I'd rather not be any category at all."

Feynman, Historically Identifying as Atheist;
Specifying, He couldn't Bring Himself
to Believe in Abrahamic Religions
Derived Anthropomorphic Gods.

Sagan, Identifying as Agnostic.

Nye, Identifying as Agnostic.

At The End of the Day The Reality Is No Matter

What Labels We Assign to Our Humanity, Each And

Every One of Us is Both Unique And Similar in Many Ways.

Panentheism, Most Closely Relates to my Existential Intelligence;

However, at the End of the Day Now, Don't Give me Any Labels, Including

Autistic; i Am What i Am And i Will Be What i Do For Real; And Currently

Life is as Heavenly

as i've Ever experienced
it in Every Way as i continue Existentially

to Evolve Far Beyond Any Prisons of Labels...

There is A Lot of Similarity Among So-Called Militant

Atheists That Are Sure They Have the only Truth About the

Existence of no God's, And in Debate Attempt to Defeat The So-Called

Other Side in Their Ideologies of Having the Only Truth About Their Current

Specific God(s) and Religions as Fundamentalist and Literal And Black And White

in Terms of How They View the World in More oF A Real Restricted Left Hemisphere

Mind of Processing The World as Identified By The Current Modern Scholar of Note

on Left and Right Hemisphere Processes of Mind, Iain McGilchrist, as in my Experience,

Anecdotally, i've Surely Seen Similarities in the Way Both Evangelical Christians And Militant

Atheists Tend to View the World; Either Restricting It to Materially Reducing it Through Text Books of

Science or How Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians Attempt to Make Science Out of a Big Book

of Mix and

Matched

Scripts

of Free Verse
Poetry and Prose
And the Such Collected
in Centuries of that Anthology
of Words By Innumerable Ghost Authors and Scribes.

Albania, Claimed To be The First Atheist Country State;

It Didn't Last; Humans Are Evolved to Forage Mostly Naked

Among Groups of No More Than around 150 Humans, They

Are Well Acquainted With, Bonding and Binding Over Similar Ideologies

And Symbols Through Our Innate abilities to Develop Some Kind Of Language

to Better Cooperate in the Forage of the Day for Survival and The Dance and Song
Free of the Day

And Night

To Actually
Warmly Thrive
Together Naked
Enough Whole Complete

In LoVE iN Peace as Even
Kittens and Puppy Dogs Play

And Extend That in Enough Environmental
Abundance, As Environmental Scarcity Leads Tribally

More to Competition Taking, Hoarding, And Harming...

It Doesn't Matter If It Is An Atheistic or Theocratic Run State;

Human Suffer When They Are Not Allowed to Evolve into More

Human Potential Out of the Confines of What is Tradition Before;

Unless All They Can
Handle in Life

is Staying

in The Cave and

Not Exploring New

More Colorful Lights of the Day...

Sadly, There Are Some Atheistic

And Theistic Folks Who Are More of This

Nature; Life's Not Fair, Not Everyone Gets to Play With Wings...

The Greatest

Gift of Nature

is Change; Change

is the Name i Give my God That is Real;

You Can't Give Change One Label or One Way to Be...

Sadly, Others See the Illusions of Statues Buried

At The Bottom of the Ocean Like 'A. I.'

Both the Movie and The Reality;

Impossible for them to Surface
And Come Back to Life;

Not

Realizing

They Are
the Statues For Real;

Yet More Than A Book or Movie;

Human, With the Ability For Change...

There is Obvious Danger in Any Ideology And

Associated Symbols That Believes It Has the Only Unchanging Truth:

Rotting Away

in One Lifetime Now...

If Science is Performed Correctly,

We Realize The Limitations Thereof,

Per Richard Feyman's Assessment
of The Nature of "Change" too...

Overall, i Give Science

The Edge of

Understanding

The God of Change,

Surely From What i've Seen
oF All The Churches i've Attended

As Participant Anthropology Observer;

Yet On the Other Hand, What Good is

Life Without a Communion of Love and Peace;

Science Wins The Ideologies and Symbols in Change;

Yet Religion,

Per Tradition

Still Wins

The Warmth

of the Group

LoVE iN Peace
Underneath As Foundation of
Whatever Ideologies and Symbols Come Now or Next Now;

The Human Touch of LoVE iN Peace Springs Alive
Beyond All Ideologies and Symbols For Real;

Yet Always

Changing For

Real; At Best We
Ride 'The Wave Of Change' NewLY NoW

Warmly Drenched With LoVE iN Peace; God Yes,

Unless Ya Are addicted to Misery Loves Company;

As Tru, Ya May get Plenty of Dopamine and Adrenaline

As Either A Militant Angry, Debating, Restricted Thinking, Feeling,
Sensing Atheist OR Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian too; Yes,

All That May

Be Missing

is the Humanity
of the Warmth of the Human Touch;

Materially Reducing it to Oxytocin of Course too...

Yawn, Some Days

It's Best Just To Drop

All the Written Words

And Dance and Sing

Without Lessons of Before...

'The Spirit' is Surely Still Alive
in the Song, "Symphony of Science" Now;

As Even Famous Atheist Sam Harris Touts
The Healing Core of 'Spiritually' Ascending Transcending

Meditative Events Together Like Gospel Singing And Rock Concerts Same...

Yawn, When We

Drop All the

Written Words
So Tribally Cherished,

A Free Dance and Song May 'SPeak' More Truth Underneath For Real;

Keep on Beating The Drums of Nature's Change 'Dear Richard;'

Our HeART Beats

And Breaths Birthing

A New Existence;

EacH and Every

One NeW iN 'Change'...

Not Here to Debate,

Just 'Standing on A Desk Differently; Adding Another Verse to my Multi-
UNiVeRSE, Paraphrasing A "Dead Poet's Society" For Real a Bit too, Hehe..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk

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Lecia_Wynter
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27 Apr 2023, 3:55 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

Carl Sagan:

Quote:

Just you wait. Atheism is relatively new and hasn't much time to ferment yet.

Yes most organized religion is garbage. But I am talking about the fine, distilled essence of religion.

When you get to the fine, distilled essence of atheism, its consume and reproduce.

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27 Apr 2023, 3:58 pm

^ Atheism - the absence of belief in a deity - is not new at all.

And once again, your conception of atheism does not reflect everyone else’s.

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Lecia_Wynter
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27 Apr 2023, 4:13 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

^ Atheism - the absence of belief in a deity - is not new at all.

And once again, your conception of atheism does not reflect everyone else’s.

Atheism is a relatively new social phenomenon. There were hardly any atheists in the 1800s and they were closeted and kept it to themselves. Not like today with lots of open atheism.

Quote:

And once again, your conception of atheism does not reflect everyone else’s.

Deep down the core of atheism is consume and reproduce. Poems of celebrity atheists are just window dressing padded by fame and fortune. When all is going good, they talk about how humans are made of star stuff and dancing molecules (I don't see how that appeals to the average person btw. Seems more geared towards meganerds.) Alright, but what about the atheist in crisis? Either they pray to a god they don't believe in or they go to the core of atheism, consume and reproduce. All the time online I hear atheists talk about how humans are just an accident, consciousness was caused by a virus, there is no purpose to life besides to consume and spread genetic material... etc. You know what the difference is between those atheists and the celebrity atheists? The celebrity atheists have lives that are going right, things working out for them. And the others have a life that's not going so well.

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27 Apr 2023, 4:28 pm

Atheism isn't new - in fact it pre-dates religion (in all forms)

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27 Apr 2023, 6:10 pm

Quote:

Atheism is a relatively new social phenomenon. There were hardly any atheists in the 1800s and they were closeted and kept it to themselves. Not like today with lots of open atheism.

I'm a closeted atheist offline. I don't socialize with other atheists at all, except for my brother.

Quote:

I've been an atheist in crisis. Hell, I've been an atheist in crisis recently. I've dealt with serious, heart-wrenching trauma in my life. I still don't think that the purpose of life is to consume and reproduce. It's up to each individual to find their own purpose IMO. My goal is to be a decent human being and to make the world a better place in some small way for my fellow creatures for the brief moment of time that I'm here.

Life is a journey - an adventure. I'm lucky that so many unlikely things have led to my existence. I try not to take any of it for granted. Life is complex, terrifying, and extraordinarily precious and beautiful - just one atheist's perspective.

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27 Apr 2023, 9:08 pm

Lecia_Wynter wrote:

Quote:

Then your thread might be better off with the subject line "The Dangers of Atheism and Religion".

No, because the that is outside the scope of this thread.

It doesn't make sense to me, to try to examine the downside of atheism (i.e. not being a theist) in an absolute way. It would be like trying to assess the downside of not collecting stamps without referring to the effect of collecting stamps. Or have I misunderstood what you want to do here?

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27 Apr 2023, 9:41 pm

i am an atheist. my husband died in september and is no more at all. i am beyond sad. i still live to love myself, other sentient creatures, and this fragile world. i took a walk today and enjoyed the blossoming of spring and the motions of small creatures. nothing bleak about that

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