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Sweetleaf
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01 Dec 2023, 3:29 am

LIke I don't like how they have been dealing with the palestine issues, but I have no issues whatsoever with jewish people, I just think the nation of Israel is a bit extremist. I just hate the idea of wanting palestinine people to live without having their homes bombed is automatically anti-semetic. LIke I get there are as*holes going around discriminating against jews in light of this conflict, but that is absolutely disgusting...like wh jewish people in general have nothing to do with it, it is just the Isreali government may be wrong in their approach but its about a war monger president they have not jews in general. So like anyone using this conflict as a reason to discriminate against jews is way in the wrong. But that still does not negate the fact that Israel is violating international codes and basically trying to eradicate palastinians with hamas as an excuse when apparently Israel is the ones who put hamas in power in the first place from some things I have read.

So idk I support he existance of Jewish people but I feel the nation of Israel is a bit extremist, as in they want to support jewish people and also expell or kill palestinians to make room for them. Well that is wrong and it has been wrong for a very long time yet it has been going on for decades,centuries even and Israel will not stop oppresing palastinians no matter what. So like why is it so wrong to criticize that, that palastnians never have any chances in jobs meant for isrealis. and also during any conflict they get their water and electric shut off so they can't even tell the world about what they are experieriencng.

And its weird during the republican debate those canidates swore loyalty to Israel, and no offense but hey get your head up we live in the U.S.A so pretty sure we don't have to bow down to Israel of all countries, like wtf. What even is that.


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Sweetleaf
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01 Dec 2023, 3:58 am

I should think any war mongering nation is worthy of criticizm.

That is what I think, but it's very easy to be accused of anti-semitism if you so much as criticize Isreals government, or their handling of palestine. Like you know I think all people should be equal so I can't understand a place where both sides think killing as many civilians as possible is a good war tactic. Like hamas brutally killing people and taking hostages is wrong, but also Israel brutally attacking specifically civilians when Hamas attacks happen is also wrong. And now Israel is trying to defend attacking freaking hospitals. I just with my morality I cannot justify any of that like in my eyes Hamas and Israel are both wrong. But people just want to paint it as anti-semetic, when I just hate war...I hate people killing each other doesn't matter who the sides are, it's always just young soldiers fighting other young soldiers and a ton of death....like is it worth it? Idk I just hate it all around.


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01 Dec 2023, 10:34 am

I am guessing guilt over the Holocaust, the whole "anti-Israel = anti-Semitism" argument, etc.

Also, keep in mind that Netanyahu is ideologically similar to Trump. His party, Likud, is their equivalent of the GOP or the Tories. (Labor is the equivalent of the Dems).

Another issue is that Israel is our strongest regional ally against Iran, who funds groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.


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01 Dec 2023, 1:16 pm

The controversy is not over criticizing Israeli policy. With a few exceptions Zionists agree that is ok. The controversy is over opining that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish centered country ie anti Zionism. A hotly disputed claim by a significant amount of zionists is that anti zionism is a form of antisemitism.


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01 Dec 2023, 1:43 pm

Genesis 3 wrote:

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



A lot of people consider modern Israel to be this "great nation", and a lot of people like being blessed and hate being cursed.


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Sweetleaf
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01 Dec 2023, 1:56 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I am guessing guilt over the Holocaust, the whole "anti-Israel = anti-Semitism" argument, etc.

Also, keep in mind that Netanyahu is ideologically similar to Trump. His party, Likud, is their equivalent of the GOP or the Tories. (Labor is the equivalent of the Dems).

Another issue is that Israel is our strongest regional ally against Iran, who funds groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.


That's true, I know the U.S is allied with them so we have some obligation to help in their conflict and probably important to have an ally against Iran. But yeah the fact that Iran funds groups like Hamas just makes it seem even more unfair, that so many Palestinian civilians are being killed, when Hamas isn't even a Palestinian organization.

Of course I don't think that means Israel shouldn't defend themselves, but the targeting of civilians is excessive. I know there are breaks between bombings for civilians to 'evacuate' but where are they to evacuate to exactly? Or if it's a hospital they are going to bomb there may be a lot of people who cannot evacuate very effectively.


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Tim_Tex
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01 Dec 2023, 4:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I am guessing guilt over the Holocaust, the whole "anti-Israel = anti-Semitism" argument, etc.

Also, keep in mind that Netanyahu is ideologically similar to Trump. His party, Likud, is their equivalent of the GOP or the Tories. (Labor is the equivalent of the Dems).

Another issue is that Israel is our strongest regional ally against Iran, who funds groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.


That's true, I know the U.S is allied with them so we have some obligation to help in their conflict and probably important to have an ally against Iran. But yeah the fact that Iran funds groups like Hamas just makes it seem even more unfair, that so many Palestinian civilians are being killed, when Hamas isn't even a Palestinian organization.

Of course I don't think that means Israel shouldn't defend themselves, but the targeting of civilians is excessive. I know there are breaks between bombings for civilians to 'evacuate' but where are they to evacuate to exactly? Or if it's a hospital they are going to bomb there may be a lot of people who cannot evacuate very effectively.


Many Gazans have evacuated to Egypt.


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01 Dec 2023, 5:21 pm

Because the default view in western society is that Muslims do not deserve rights the same way Jews and Christians do.
Because Jews are the only victims of the Holocaust you can get Both F---ing Sides to give a damn about with any consistency. The right sure as hell does not feel the Roma are entitled to an exclusive apartheid state of their own. They definitely don't care about the Nazi murder of homosexuals or leftists. Right-wing Protestants probably don't care or haven't even heard of the murder of Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. It's the same mass graves--but mainstream society can only bring itself to feel bad about the Jews.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The controversy is not over criticizing Israeli policy. With a few exceptions Zionists agree that is ok.

Tell that to any Zionist who has just chided people for criticizing Israeli policy towards non-Jewish Israelis or towards Palestinians civilians. Suggesting Palestinian children should not get holes in their head is a good way to get Zionists to suggest you want to bathe in the blood of Jews.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The controversy is over opining that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish centered country ie anti Zionism. A hotly disputed claim by a significant amount of zionists is that anti zionism is a form of antisemitism.

And why should Israel have that right? What makes Jews entitled to a semi-theocratic state that subordinates non-Jews who have been living in Israel/Canaan/Palestine (too many names for this place and none of them feel neutral anymore) for more than a thousand years? "Because they were there first"? Zionists sure do become master historians and ethnographers when it comes to Israel and......nowhere else. I don't see Zionists calling for....ANY other ethnic or religious group to be granted an exclusive supremacist state--as if that is the only way to guarantee such a group's safety (white supremacists love this narrative for reasons which should be obvious.
Tell me, do Jews in Israel who converted to Christianity at any time in the last 2000 years deserve to live there any less than those who remained Jewish? What about Jews who converted to Islam? Y'all think that **never** happened? Forgive my skepticism, but in my experience, Zionists tend to think that 100% of Muslims living in Palestine in 1948 were Arabs who conquered their way there 1300 years ago. Jews have converted to Christianity and Islam over the centuries the same way billions of others have. Did they forfeit their rights to the land when they did so? Did converting from Judaism mean they deserved to see their villages and temples reduced to ashes?

Besides the various lies Zionists have sewn, criticizing Israel is discouraged in the US because Israel is a US ally, full stop. For SOME reason, the people of the Middle East really started to get pissed off about western countries ruling them as subjects or dictating their countries' policies from the shadows under implicit threat of regime change. Therefore, the US clings for dear life to their one true ally in the region, and the political and social establishment will use any questionable line of argument needed to paint critics of Israel as anti-American, anti-Democracy, Anti-Semitic, and pro-terrorist.


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01 Dec 2023, 7:19 pm

https://www.thedailybeast.com/israeli-d ... etter%20PM


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Sweetleaf
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02 Dec 2023, 2:22 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I am guessing guilt over the Holocaust, the whole "anti-Israel = anti-Semitism" argument, etc.

Also, keep in mind that Netanyahu is ideologically similar to Trump. His party, Likud, is their equivalent of the GOP or the Tories. (Labor is the equivalent of the Dems).

Another issue is that Israel is our strongest regional ally against Iran, who funds groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.


That's true, I know the U.S is allied with them so we have some obligation to help in their conflict and probably important to have an ally against Iran. But yeah the fact that Iran funds groups like Hamas just makes it seem even more unfair, that so many Palestinian civilians are being killed, when Hamas isn't even a Palestinian organization.

Of course I don't think that means Israel shouldn't defend themselves, but the targeting of civilians is excessive. I know there are breaks between bombings for civilians to 'evacuate' but where are they to evacuate to exactly? Or if it's a hospital they are going to bomb there may be a lot of people who cannot evacuate very effectively.


Many Gazans have evacuated to Egypt.


Hmm well that's good, I just had heard initially in some online article Egypt was not letting in palestinian refugees, but either that wasn't true or they changed policy and are allowing them in now. But yeah having read that I was certainly concerned the palestinians only option was to just to evacuate around and about in gaza and hope whatever building they seek shelter in doesn't get bombarded.


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Sweetleaf
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02 Dec 2023, 2:35 am

roronoa79 wrote:
Because the default view in western society is that Muslims do not deserve rights the same way Jews and Christians do.
Because Jews are the only victims of the Holocaust you can get Both F---ing Sides to give a damn about with any consistency. The right sure as hell does not feel the Roma are entitled to an exclusive apartheid state of their own. They definitely don't care about the Nazi murder of homosexuals or leftists. Right-wing Protestants probably don't care or haven't even heard of the murder of Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. It's the same mass graves--but mainstream society can only bring itself to feel bad about the Jews.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The controversy is not over criticizing Israeli policy. With a few exceptions Zionists agree that is ok.

Tell that to any Zionist who has just chided people for criticizing Israeli policy towards non-Jewish Israelis or towards Palestinians civilians. Suggesting Palestinian children should not get holes in their head is a good way to get Zionists to suggest you want to bathe in the blood of Jews.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The controversy is over opining that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish centered country ie anti Zionism. A hotly disputed claim by a significant amount of zionists is that anti zionism is a form of antisemitism.

And why should Israel have that right? What makes Jews entitled to a semi-theocratic state that subordinates non-Jews who have been living in Israel/Canaan/Palestine (too many names for this place and none of them feel neutral anymore) for more than a thousand years? "Because they were there first"? Zionists sure do become master historians and ethnographers when it comes to Israel and......nowhere else. I don't see Zionists calling for....ANY other ethnic or religious group to be granted an exclusive supremacist state--as if that is the only way to guarantee such a group's safety (white supremacists love this narrative for reasons which should be obvious.
Tell me, do Jews in Israel who converted to Christianity at any time in the last 2000 years deserve to live there any less than those who remained Jewish? What about Jews who converted to Islam? Y'all think that **never** happened? Forgive my skepticism, but in my experience, Zionists tend to think that 100% of Muslims living in Palestine in 1948 were Arabs who conquered their way there 1300 years ago. Jews have converted to Christianity and Islam over the centuries the same way billions of others have. Did they forfeit their rights to the land when they did so? Did converting from Judaism mean they deserved to see their villages and temples reduced to ashes?

Besides the various lies Zionists have sewn, criticizing Israel is discouraged in the US because Israel is a US ally, full stop. For SOME reason, the people of the Middle East really started to get pissed off about western countries ruling them as subjects or dictating their countries' policies from the shadows under implicit threat of regime change. Therefore, the US clings for dear life to their one true ally in the region, and the political and social establishment will use any questionable line of argument needed to paint critics of Israel as anti-American, anti-Democracy, Anti-Semitic, and pro-terrorist.


If I recall correctly 6 million jews where killed in the holocaust, but the total number of people killed was closer to like 11 million, so mostly jews were killed but they for sure killed various christians, socialists, communists, homosexuals, disabled people ect as well.

And also yeah I don't like theocracies, so of course I don't think Israel should be a theocracy...doesn't mean I think it shouldn't exist, but theocracy is always bad news....so I'd prefer they exist with a more secular government.


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Cataclysmic Psychlone
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02 Dec 2023, 3:19 am

I suspect I won't be popular from here on, but I'm Autistic, so I'll get over it. :lol:

I'm a bit of a WW2 buff. The West failed to help the Jews. Horribly. Don't forget that the test run for the 'Final Solution' was Aktion T4, where many Autistics were no doubt murdered.

Image

Once again, humans - no doubt predominantly NTs - need to assert a hierarchy. Jews and Moslems are coming from two different angles.

Israel are attempting to defend themselves with Western values - and firepower. Palestinians do not hesitate in making themselves martyrs and draw attention to their suffering to Western media.

Frankly, any society that is willing to use their own children as human shields and sacrifice them for attention is not that highly evolved. Not to mention utterly despicable.

And.... all over the Western media - Palestine is the 'victim'. They have played their cards well. Opportunistic Woke news hacks have seen their opportunity for personal advancement in the suffering of others (yet again) and played into the hands of Hamas to create a world culture of anger towards Israel.

Let's not forget that Hamas started this war. Imagine how you would feel if your kids died at a music festival.

At the end of the day, all of them need to grow up. However you shouldn't believe the pro-Palestine garbage the media is shoving down your throat. When has a journalist ever been on your side?



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02 Dec 2023, 3:53 am

Can I ask? Is there a Palestinian resistance against the terrorists of Hamas?

Or are they all the same?

I know as Autistics we still struggle in Western society - but we are still here, due to the blood shed on the Somme and Normandy, and as Western society evolves, I believe we will find our acceptance if we continue to speak up for ourselves.

Palestine is awash with assault rifles and other weapons. If someone wanted change..... just sayin :wink:

If a lion was coming for my children it wouldn't matter what flag it waved.



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02 Dec 2023, 4:25 am

Cataclysmic Psychlone wrote:
I suspect I won't be popular from here on, but I'm Autistic, so I'll get over it. :lol:

I'm a bit of a WW2 buff. The West failed to help the Jews. Horribly. Don't forget that the test run for the 'Final Solution' was Aktion T4, where many Autistics were no doubt murdered.

Image

Once again, humans - no doubt predominantly NTs - need to assert a hierarchy. Jews and Moslems are coming from two different angles.

Israel are attempting to defend themselves with Western values - and firepower. Palestinians do not hesitate in making themselves martyrs and draw attention to their suffering to Western media.

Frankly, any society that is willing to use their own children as human shields and sacrifice them for attention is not that highly evolved. Not to mention utterly despicable.

And.... all over the Western media - Palestine is the 'victim'. They have played their cards well. Opportunistic Woke news hacks have seen their opportunity for personal advancement in the suffering of others (yet again) and played into the hands of Hamas to create a world culture of anger towards Israel.

Let's not forget that Hamas started this war. Imagine how you would feel if your kids died at a music festival.

At the end of the day, all of them need to grow up. However you shouldn't believe the pro-Palestine garbage the media is shoving down your throat. When has a journalist ever been on your side?


Well I don't think palestinians are just signing up their children for human shield duty, but also even if nasty hamas was using children as human shields, does that make it right to kill all the 'sheilds' before actually going after the real enemy.

And yeah if I had children I would not want one kidnapped from a music festival, but also why the f**k where they having a music festival so close to the war zone at that time. I don't blame any of the concert goers for getting taken by hamas...but what the f**k where the organizers thinking holding a festival that close to an active war zone. It just provided hamas with an easy way to capture a bunch of young people they are holding hostage still at least the ones who they havent raped and killed yet.


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Sweetleaf
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02 Dec 2023, 4:44 am

Cataclysmic Psychlone wrote:
Can I ask? Is there a Palestinian resistance against the terrorists of Hamas?

Or are they all the same?

I know as Autistics we still struggle in Western society - but we are still here, due to the blood shed on the Somme and Normandy, and as Western society evolves, I believe we will find our acceptance if we continue to speak up for ourselves.

Palestine is awash with assault rifles and other weapons. If someone wanted change..... just sayin :wink:
If a lion was coming for my children it wouldn't matter what flag it waved.


But what if it turned out the real Lion was your own government, putting your children in danger. Isreals leader only cares about wiping out Palestinians, he doesn't really care about defeating hamas, he cares about using the hamas issue to eradicate the palestinians regardless of the cost to palestinian or isreali civilian lives.


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02 Dec 2023, 9:01 am

Cataclysmic Psychlone wrote:
<what you said>

You didn't fully address the original question, but I agree with everything you said and you brought a unique perspective that can't easily be dismissed.


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