The Trinity Doesn't Make Sense!

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Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say he alone is the son of god.

What he actually claims is that we are all children of god and therefore he refers to god as the father.

In saying this he was not actually claiming to be different to any one of us.

Jesus was not god.

Jesus was a man with a belief that we were all created by a god (who we can therefore call father)

A belief that I personally don't share.

Jesus was an interesting historical figure nonetheless.

For all of you visual-spacial learners, here is a website that may be of interest to check out briefly, particularly the cartoon on this page: http://www.theophilus.org/powers1/temples.html. As for the debate, since other people have quoted Scripture, I will assume I am allowed to, right?

Jesus is God

In the book of Romans, Paul (the apostle) says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". God has never sinned, nor will he ever because he is perfect. Perfect beings do not sin. Jesus did not sin. Therefore, Jesus is not one of us and he is God.

Also, in John 1, it says that "In the beginning, there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". The Word is clearly Jesus Christ, and it says he was with God in the beginning of time and he was God.

When John the baptist baptized Jesus, all three parts of the trinity were present. Jesus was present in human form (a tangible object, in a sense), God spoke and said "This is my son and I am proud of him" (or something to that effect) and the Holy Spirit was present in the form of a dove, a recurring symbol in the Bible. (If you read the story of Noah and the Ark in Genesis, Noah sent out a dove which got the olive branch from the mountain.)

The Bible does not specifically say "trinity".

Nowhere in the Bible is there a record of the word "trinity", so this is why a lot of people disagree. There is another verse that specifically says something to the effect of there being three parts to God, but I'll have to find it.

A practical example to illustrate the trinity (and one that is used in many elementary religion classes). Imagine an apple, made up of the skin, the flesh and the core. There are three parts to this apple, but it is still one apple. There are three parts to God, but he is still one God. Another example commonly used is the shamrock.

Asparval

Jesus says:Thou blaspemest; because I said, I am the Son of God. John 10:36.

Namiko

Here is my argument for You. Why Jesus is not God.

If Jesus was God "WHO COULD RESURRECT HIM", no-one could, because he is God. No angels or men could resurrect him if he was GOD. If he allowed himself to die on a cross, tree, stake; who could bring him back to LIFE. Again I say no-one could or be able to bring Him back to LIFE.

In the Books of Hebrews and of Revelation, Jesus is either at the right hand or in the midst of the Throne of God, but not sitting on the Throne of God himself. If Jesus was God, He would be sitting on the Throne would he not.

Scriptures:
Hebrews 8:1 says: "who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;"
Hebrews 12:2 says: "is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Revelation 7:17 says: "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne"

I can not truly understand you apple illustration, to me it makes no sence.

We are all children of the divine absolute.
In this regard, Jesus was not saying something that is not true.
Jesus didn't believe that others could not do the same works that he was doing if their knowledge and devotion to the Father was equal or greater then his was. In fact, he prophisied that people would do greater works then him.

My problem is with those who claim exclusive status to the relationship that Jesus had with the divine. To me they quickly sound like the Pharasiees that Jesus was speaking against. They seem to to me to build walls around spiritual maturity, they seem not to enter themselves, and they appear to forbid others to enter.

Whether or not he is the Messiah is still to be determined.

irishmic

You maybe right in many things.

I though see Jesus as the Messiah thou for us all, of mankind together we will learn together to help each other to be together; to learn what Life is truly for us all. That is truly learning about Life, and teaching about Living Life for us all.

I agree with Namiko. Jesus was both God and man. We cannot possibly understand everything about God because He is infinitely beyond us.

To Namiko and Grievous

Jesus himself never claimed himself to be God.

Jesus only claimed to be the Son of God.

Need to Show me the scriptures that he says he himself is God.

As Jesus said: Touch me not; for I as not yet ascended to my Father:...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. John 20:17.

It is us (man) that has created the trinity, and make Jesus a God that he is not.

I disagree. Think of God as a tri-unity being with three roles to have. Also Revelation makes it clear that Jesus is the Son of God and God as well as all power on Earth and Heaven is given to Him.

Grievous

Yes Jesus has been given power:Now is come salavation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. Revelation 12:10.

In Revelation Christ is called(Lamb and Michael) and is in the midst of the throne but Jesus does not sit on the throne himself. Jesus as Lamb: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne Revelation 7:17

Jesus is given this power for Thousand Years only: reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4.

Jesus returns power to his Father and God: shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Jesus as passover lamb?
Do you understand the ramifications of this statement.
Probably Not!
It implies that human sacrifice is of value for human salvation, perhaps a selling point to pagans, but not to Jews. Thus, it is firmly another Helenist creation. In fact, I would refer you to a complete edition of the first Ecumenical Council. Here is a good link First Ecumenical Council

irishmic

Jesus as passover lamb.

Jesus was a ransom sacrifice, for all mankind not a passover lamb sacrifice. Since Adam sinned against God, Jesus had to take away what Adam had done to mankind. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is a release for sin and away for God to over look our sinful ways that we all live.

Namiko

I been trying to avoid this but it can not be done it is about John 1:1. I have six Interlinear Translations of of New Testament or if You want to call the Greek Scriptures. They have the Greek with English Translated below the Greek. The New Testament was written in koine (common) Greek that was everyday Greek that was spoken. I studied some Greek over the years, I even had various books on the Greek language, though I have lost few of these books sorry to say over the years.

If You look into a Interlinear You will see God in Greek spelled a little differently. This tell me that one God is not equal to the other. Here is what one Interlinear Translation says of John 1:1 I well use the English translated below the Greek. I will give You two examples

John 1:1 "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."

The second example

John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word, was toward the the God and god was the Word."

The god or a god is smaller than the other God. These translations use such words as "a god" "divine" or "godlike" because the Greek word the-os is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. So it is how You want to Look at it and see it.

Jesus was "divine" or "godlike" but was not God himself, Jesus has qualities Like his Father and his God, but does not make him God. That is what John 1:14 is also showing.

The other part of John 1:14 says: "and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

I have trouble seeing why you dont see Jesus as God if they both possess the same divine qualities. Only God can forgive sins. If Jesus was not God, his sacrifice was pointless since no one could be forgiven by him.

Colossians 1:14-15 states,

1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

It says that Jesus was the image of the invisible God. That means they have to be equal if Jesus was the image of the Father.

Jesus did say that the Father was greater than he. But this can be applied to us as well. No life was created with more or less value than another. The President of the U.S. has a greater rank than any other American, but he is only human. And as a human he is no more valuable than anyone else. Jesus said this because he was in the form of a human and therefore looked at the Father the same way as any other person.

Whatever the case, well understand it when we get to heaven.




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Whatever you want to believe Kevv
Funny thing is though, after 1700 years, and some quite radical attempts to wipe it out, the conspiricy that the early church fathers tried to eradicate in the first ecumenical council keeps rearing it's ugly head.