Denying the holocaust

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I'm the great granddaughter of Polish Jews. And I'm all for keeping Holocaust denial nice and legal. If they feel free to say it publicly, then that makes it easier for me to weed out antisemitic idiots from the general masses of people, and thus avoid them.

Not to mention, if a global rule against such hateful antisemitism was put in place, half of 4chan and youtube users would be in jail now.

My own family on my father's side fled Europe to the USA before 1900 when persecuting Jews was a popular sport in central Europe and elsewhere and when it was not unknown in the USA as well. But at least in New York it was not so blatantly vicious. The Jews, of course, have been persecuted for centuries, much of the time, by Catholics who characterized Jews as Christ killers, an accusation supported by their central church, and the ultimate horrors of the Nazi regime only capped the traditions of pogroms with something particularly nasty that had been going on for a long time. Denying clearly recorded and confirmed history is, of course, a form of mild insanity, but it served many practical purposes for governments and religions to steal property and lives from helpless victims.

The reaction of Jews to flee to a sanctuary in an almost totally hostile area in the Middle East has always seemed to me only a way of further exacerbating the problem and the practice of Israel in seizing the real suffering of the Jewish people out of the centuries and especially of the Nazi Holocaust and prizing it as an excuse to behave badly to the local natives in Israel is equally inexcusable. I have known and admired both Arabs and Jews in Israel and it pains me to see that there is, as far as I can see, very little chance at the present moment, of a simple solution to a very difficult problem.

But, whatever its utility, I see no point in denying that the Holocaust happened.

by antisemism you're referring to semites yeah?

Please avoid me - I can't stand people that think they have a monopoly on suffering!

well, I believe it is entirely reasonable why denying the holocaust is illegal in Germany, and in my opinion, I would say that that is very acceptable to be that way it is and should remain that way, though for countries in which they were not much affected by it, there would be not much point in making it illegal, in the US as example, I don't see much point, but I see the point of it in Germany.

The problem with denying the holocaust, would be, as some put it, history is suppose to serve as a learning tool from past mistakes, if we deny something like this, how can humanity learn from it?

About the 6 million figure, well, I have heard that the number was exageratted, and well, I thought that could be a possibility, at least being an aproximation and the real number probably a pretty amount of less, but, given that I'm not really informed about the issue, I shouldn't be able to say something, which I recognize, if there are documents and other type of evidence to suggest that the 6 M figure to be a good aproximation at least, then I should take it as something that actually supports the oficial stand.

Anyway, aren't the 6 million figure, the number of all deaths, including gipsys, homosexuals, the disabled, etc, and not only jews?

If I go claiming something, I would need solid evidence to support my argument, otherwise it all comes down to, nothing more than just plain conspiracy theory. And, the oficially accepted stand seems to have more credibility than an independent source, given that an independent source can actually say anything, and I really mean, anything, and I seriously doubt they will have to deal with their results being subjected to strictly examination and verified in order to gain scholarly acceptance.

As twoshots said earlier, the burden of proof is on the one making an unconventional claim, being that why such claim loses credibility and validity.

Last edited by greenblue on 14 Apr 2009, 11:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Clearly documented and confirmed history you say? hmm, don't think so. Otherwise I wouldn't have an issue with it.

Yes, wiping out the actual Jews from the land of Palestine does seem to create a very difficult problem!

And lest you think that an outrageoulsy provocative statement..see links:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/55690

The 6 million figure IS the conspiracy theory. The amount of people killed in the T4 programme were not assimilated into the overall figure AFAIK

Maybe ask why the plaque outside Auschwitz Birkenau has reduced over the years in the number it has engraved on it to the tune of MILLIONS and yet the overall number remains static.

The numbers were actually transferred over to the figure given of those murdered by the Einstazgrueppe - sorry, but that is blatantly 'cooking the books' - how much does someone need in this 'burden of proof' equation??

Even before the number was grossly hiked up the Einsatzgrueppe were said to be killing over a 150,000 people A DAY by mass execution with rifles whilst simultaneously fighting a front line in conjunction with the Wehrmacht against massive Soviet armies - I am sorry but when you look into it is is a patent nonsense. *shrugs* physically impossible!

The Bad Arolsen archives were closed to the public very quickly after they were eventually opened - no one has access to those archives.

This is a contentious image. I can't authenticate it but that doesn't mean it is not real.



Whether it is factual or not, it is better you see it and can investigate yourself - free from fear of criminal charge!!

The article is indeed genuine AFAIK - I'm feel confident you will look into it yourself..

Dussel - your defence in this case is very weak - this is an article which is explicity citing the 6 million figure decades before the the alleged atrocities - I don't contest there were atrocities just the scale - An articel which was published before the NDSAP even existed!!

I t just happens to be the same figure - no the pre war census does not clarify this matter! We've already broached the issue of it's unreliabilty - or at least touched on it - I can present much more on that too if needed.

Please someone tell me what they exaclty need in terms of 'burden of proof' so I can at least work from the stated premise! Otherwise it is an exercise of constantly throwing facts out and each every one of them being rebuffed as not being significant!

I am in NO WAY 'right wing' - I live in an anarchist area of a city in East Germany near the Polish border - I am well aware of the dangers of Neo-Nazism!! !

well, suppose A has a grandfather or a grandmother, and is a survivor, (given the issue of the psychology of holocaust survivors and how they and their families have dealt with it) would likely be angered at B denying it happened, when A has had to deal with the issue, and more his relative, which had to live it, in which case, B claims loses credibility and A being angered at B is perfectly understandable and reasonable. and even from outsiders perspective who consider information and documentation of it as valid strong evidence to support the official stand, even if perhaps it may contain some minor holes in it.

Last edited by greenblue on 14 Apr 2009, 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't have the links to hand - maybe full versions on my ext.HDD - but yes, there were camps and intolerable conditions of inhumane cruelty - but the official version of events IS a psychological weight on the descendants of survivors..

...there are papers written by Jewish psychologists discussing this very topic - and if then it turns out that there was a large degree of obfuscation how in the h*ll is that fair anyway?

There's a few people now in this thread that roll out the 'my grandparents were there, how dare you!!' line - I say,baloney to that. Sorry it that sounds harsh but this was 60 odd years ago and I'm supposed to go on tippity toes for the grandchildren - when they start shouting out against the genocides that are happening RIGHT NOW then I'll consider using more delicacy.

Look, I lost relatives in the wat too but I am not going to hark on about moral precepts and avoid uncomfortable questions just because it's more difficult and considered taboo by the herd.

I never was a herd animal *shrugs*

edit) NOT 'minor holes' more like chasms that are taboo to point out.

Last edited by Concenik on 15 Apr 2009, 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

He doesn't 'deny the Jews'; he is Jewish. He contends that the Palestinian semites are the original Jews who converted to Islam. He proposes Judaism was a expanding religion that sought converts ergo the majority of today's demographic - Sephardi's obviously not within this AFAIU

I don't have the 'indignation' that you speak of - please don't attempt that, I am painfully aware of where you are leading with that. You know nothing of my own family background. edit) perhaps, I read you words wrong - i don't know - yes, I am very concerned to the suffering that occurred because of the mass psychosis of Nazism - I hate it! never want it to re-emerge anywhere - but we are prone to genocide as a species as Jarod Diamond points out - my issue is that there are lies in the history and it impacts hugely on the world today..plain and simple. and no, I don't have bad feeling for Germans - the fabrication has really screwed them up as well irrespective of the now amplified schizoid identity problems whilst paradoxically not dealing with the dangers of 'mass mind' so peculiarly prevalent in their cultural dynamic.

I lived in Berlin in he early 1960s and had no problems with Germans per se and made some good friends there. There is no nation immune to the psychological disasters that plagued Germany during the time of Hitler and the techniques now used by the Israelis against the people in Gaza are highly reminiscent of Nazi policies whatever the Arabs have done, and I do not find them entirely innocent either. The actions of the USA during the past century clearly shows their hands are not clean either. Humanity is prone to all sorts of behavior and we, as individuals, do not necessarily succumb to all the nonsense and vicious attributes that you seem to dump on everybody. I find your attempts to revise history rather interesting but extremely doubtful.

I've lived in EAST Germany for a fair while now - I don't believe what I am saying is in any way derogatory to the Deutsche. A simple illustrative fact about the importance of the group precedence over individual, -esp. here in post communist Germany, is that more Germans are members of a verein than any other nation on Earth. It says something. I see the youth struggling to grasp onto some manner of imported packaged identity - far more pronounced than any of the countries that I have thus far seen. *shrugs* I imagine the Berlin of the 1960's was probably a quite place third issue of the wall notwithstanding.

I'm not saying that all individuals are liable to 'succumb to all the nonsense and vicious attributes as you call them' - fact is, humans have a history of making genocide. It is the shadow seam that runs through our history. No point in denying that. That is the history we must not forget, not to encapsulate it all into one terrible event as described as directed at one group. That is tantamount to propaganda, no?

WW2 cost 40 million lives - not just the disputed 6 million, as you know.

I'm glad you can pay interest and not take reactive offence to someone broaching such a sensitive issue. Kudos to you. I'm fine that you're 'extremely doubtful' - I wouldn't really expect anything other. I've spent a long time looking into so far and it is grueling, harrowing and you lose friends along the way *shrug* but I am glad I have done it and I know that I'm not talking a lot of crap too. I don't intend to devote much more time to this line of research tbh I have clarified for myself beyond reasonable doubt that the official account is dubious - it started from having visited a KZ many years ago on a school vacation and seeing the remnants of what we were told was a gas chamber at the camp - it was soo tiny and yet the amount of people that were supposedly murdered there was staggering - I remember thinking to myself that it didn't make sense architecturally - and then years later I saw Daniel Cole's film and was shocked to hear a Jew question the history of 'the final solution' - I started reading into at that point. There are disreputable people and fascists that will clasp onto this subject, without doubt as there are also people who have a vested interest in preserving the official story too.

I agree that there are many parallels in the Israeli policies regarding the Palestinians. Israel has some major internal problems when it comes to bigotry. As Chomsky pointed out after the massacre in Gaza - Israel could have found peace decades ago if the political emphasis had been about stability and security but instead there has always been an aggressive expansionist policy towards the project of 'Greater Israel' made under the guise of security. I just hope that there is a shift in consciousness amongst the population and a overhaul of the policy is achieved, at the very least...but unfortunately it isn't looking like a likely prospect at this point in time.

I think to the issue "German cultural dynamic" I had say something:

You hardly find in German culture a long strain of "mass mind". Germany was over centuries a patchwork of smallest states (roughly 1200 by number); and it seems that the most Germans were happy with this system till the French Revolution. This system was not a system of "mass mind", but of compromise and careful consideration. A system of power balance in which no one had any real power. This Germany has a long tradition of democratic institutions - especially in the Free Cities, formulated the "Rule of Law" supreme even to the person of Emperor in the 13rd century, introduced the revolutionary idea of an independent supreme court 300 years prior the USA, was famous for its tolerance and freedom of speech - In the 16th century a country was either protestant or catholic: Germany was both and both sides had their fair share of power finely tuned in a law. The Reason why the reformation could start in Germany was that in other European country at this time a single heretic monk had the right to appeal to the Imperial Dial and to speak freely in front of of emperor and dignities of the realm. In no other European country prior the French Revolution you found religiously mixed courts and forms of government.

The mainstream of German culture was neither radical: Goethe, Herder, Grimmelhausen, etc. were not radical. Germany was seen for centuries as bit "sleepy". The caricature of the common German was was not a "John Bull" or a cock (France), but a man with a sleeping had.

---

What the period in Germany between 1914 and 1945 showed much more how fast a nation can forget its tradition over centuries and turn from a very reputable member of the European Family into some quite ugly. The modern Federal Republic of Germany is much closer to the long term parameters of German history than the time between 1933 and 1945.

Hmm, yes as soon as I posted that I knew I should have amended it but I had to be somewhere. Sorry Dussel, I surely didn't mean to cause offence - I should have also stated that there are many aspects to the German character ( or at least round here where I know) that I am thoroughly impressed with and admire.

If only that sleepy image was still there - I find it somewhat appealing - chilled out and all that - of course everything you say is right here but one can't really underestimate the massive cultural changes that have occured since the outset of the 20th century - not just since 1933 - the effect has been indelible - especially here in the East, I don't know if you know the east much but the things I speak of are quite pronounced - during the Weltmeisterschaft there were a LOT of pent up emotions bubbling to the surface. Even my German friends were amazed and somewhat horrified by the sheer amount of flags everywhere - really it was a little bit extreme even by world cup standards - it was finally permissible to evince pride in the nation - there's no tempering here - there's a lot of surpressed psychic baggage.. saying that the attitude of the Ossies has some really amazing characteristics too.

As said I wasn't slagging Germany off I was rather trying, rather clumsily, to illustrate some of the underlying threads which sometimes typify and inform the culture here in the 21st century, from an Auslander's POV.

That 40 million figure seems very suspicious to me. I'm not denying that people died during that period, but the true figure is probably closer to 10 million, or maybe just a few hundred thousand. Or just a few hundred. And they actually died of old age anyway.

Unfortunately, some Europeans exaggerated the death toll in order to leech money from the USA in the form of the Marshall Plan.

There are numerous holes in the official story when you start looking for them. For example, there is no evidence that European leaders ordered their armies to kill 40 million people. Do they really expect us to believe that their armies killed 40 million people without orders? That's such a ridiculously high number. Even if I killed someone every day for the next five years, that would barely reach two thousand people. And if I had to kill someone every day I'd probably kill myself out of guilt before the end of the first week.

Not to mention that the supposed 'estimates' of death that the Europeans have cooked up for each country keep on changing. Yet the overall estimate is still 40 million. Such a nice round number. Very suspicious, if you ask me.

And these Europeans expect the whole world to learn about their phony "World War" in history class. Booooring. I'm tired of these Europeans pretending they have a monopoly on suffering. It's time for people to stand and be unafraid to speak the truth: there probably was no World War II!