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ed
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06 Aug 2008, 9:14 am

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^Yep because the estimated number of causlities on Kyushu was 250,000 Allied troops it could have easily reached 1 million within a year upon Honshu after it was invaded. Anyone who says the Atomic Bombs are immoral then you're give a non-living object a human quality when only humans can be immoral. Yet with Japan's war crimes other Asia nations still haven't forgiven them for it, we did somehow but our veterans don't sometimes like my Grandpa Jerry.


I'm the son of a veteran, and I will never forgive the Japanese or Germans who did this. Not even the Nazi Pope!


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06 Aug 2008, 9:55 am

^Actually you should forgive because if you heard of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Committee and its trials. Some people forgave the killers of their love ones while others can not from the era of Apartheid in South Africa. If the same thing happened after WWII in Germany and Japan, Americans and our allies would been trialed for our actions as well. I forgive Japan for what they did along with Germany because their leaders' minds were twisted not the common soldier or civilian. Everyone has the will to say no to something that is wrong and inhumane.


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06 Aug 2008, 2:23 pm

I tend to disagree with the idea of the Japanese soldiers not being twisted. Yes you can say they were indoctrinated into thinking that way, but it was common Japanese soldiers who perpetrated thousands of war crimes against the Chinese and the Allies. Germany on the other hand, though the Wehrmacht cannot be said to be totally innocent, it was the Waffen SS and its organization that committed the crimes against the Jews and other groups. Not to mention that but Germany has paid billions in reparations, set up laws preventing Holocaust denial and vilified the Nazis. Japan's emperor was allowed to stay on his throne, on the other hand, and as recent as a few years ago there was still debate in Japan over whether they should apologize; and statues of known Japanese war criminals still stand in Tokyo, many planted after the war. And don't get me started on the text book debate, the Japanese like to think they were innocent and I've watched many documentaries and interviews with Japanese people flat out denying that their troops committed most of these crimes. Until Japan truly apologizes, they're not deserving of any forgiveness.



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06 Aug 2008, 4:28 pm

As for the Japanese, the only thing that might have been done differently was if the Yanks dropped the first atomic bomb on an uninhabited island. But yes, they were still prepared to fight on and defend the motherland. The scenario was horrible, with Yank troops invading the main island, and fighting civilians. They had already been fire bombed, lost their Navy and Army, but would not surrender.
By the by, the atomic bomb was originally to be dropped on Berlin (! !)


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JerryHatake
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06 Aug 2008, 5:00 pm

Prof_Pretorius wrote:
As for the Japanese, the only thing that might have been done differently was if the Yanks dropped the first atomic bomb on an uninhabited island. But yes, they were still prepared to fight on and defend the motherland. The scenario was horrible, with Yank troops invading the main island, and fighting civilians. They had already been fire bombed, lost their Navy and Army, but would not surrender.
By the by, the atomic bomb was originally to be dropped on Berlin (! !)

It was planned to be used on Germany but when Trinity was tested in July 1945, Japan was still fighting and Germany surrendered on Truman's birthday, May 8th, 1945. I believe that Operation Olympic and Cornet would be a joint allied invasion of Japan. Funny thing was if the bombs weren't used then there would be a big congressional hearing wondering about a large amount of money's disappearance "Manhattan Project".

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There is always two sides of a story in the end. Letters from Iwo Jima and Flags of Our Fathers is a good example of the story of Iwo Jima. Most of those Japanese soldiers are also ashamed for what they did in the War and some are evening trying to tell the story of Nanjing. Okinawans are angered at them for sure with history books deal because it states they choose to killed themsevles not to ordered. Their government is split in half to apologized for their crimes. We did cruel things to them as well you realize so we are just like them as they were to us. War is cruel in the end and total war is inhumane.


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06 Aug 2008, 5:20 pm

Of course; I've also seen interviews with former Japanese soldiers who abhor what they did in the war. I wouldn't put allied war crimes vs the Japanese on par with what the Japanese did though. War is hell, but they were a hell of a lot meaner then us.



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06 Aug 2008, 5:49 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Of course; I've also seen interviews with former Japanese soldiers who abhor what they did in the war. I wouldn't put allied war crimes vs the Japanese on par with what the Japanese did though. War is hell, but they were a hell of a lot meaner then us.


Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


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06 Aug 2008, 7:01 pm

As for the Japanese being in denial, I once saw a documentary regarding a Japanese Commander. I believe he was in charge of one of the islands that was so very difficult to take. He was captured, and held as a POW by the Yanks. Post war, he was so ashamed of what he had done, he became a Buddhist monk, and lived out his days in a monastery, doing penance.


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06 Aug 2008, 11:43 pm

I have found fascinating the role women played in WWII.

You had women's involvement in the underground - the likes of Nancy Wake and Violette Bushell Szabo.

Another interesting role women had was in the Soviet Union, where women were used in combat, especially in roles such as pilots.



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07 Aug 2008, 5:51 am

JDoherty wrote:
I have found fascinating the role women played in WWII.

You had women's involvement in the underground - the likes of Nancy Wake and Violette Bushell Szabo.

Another interesting role women had was in the Soviet Union, where women were used in combat, especially in roles such as pilots.


The Russians actually had women snipers as well and they were pretty good at it.


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07 Aug 2008, 6:37 am

Just be sure to remember: All this happened more than sixty years ago. These countries are very different places now.
Germany, Turkey, Japan, etc. of the 40's I hate.
But, modern day Germany, Turkey and Japan are actually pretty good countries. Different generations.

Though, admittedly, I still don't trust older Japanese and German people... the Turks at least fought with honour.
Turkish veterans are even allowed to march in our parades... but not the Nazis or Imperial Japanese... too many atrocities.


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07 Aug 2008, 6:44 am

Ishmael wrote:
Just be sure to remember: All this happened more than sixty years ago. These countries are very different places now.
Germany, Turkey, Japan, etc. of the 40's I hate.
But, modern day Germany, Turkey and Japan are actually pretty good countries. Different generations.

Though, admittedly, I still don't trust older Japanese and German people... the Turks at least fought with honour.
Turkish veterans are even allowed to march in our parades... but not the Nazis or Imperial Japanese... too many atrocities.


The Turks weren't in the axis during WWII it was Italy because the Ottoman Empire was in WWI as an enemy but was broken up into Allied controlled nations after WWI.


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07 Aug 2008, 7:13 am

Acually the Turks were fighting. They didn't fight the yanks; but they did fight the Australians.


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07 Aug 2008, 8:13 am

^Well I just check and Turkey became an ally as of Feburary 23rd, 1945. Therefore Turkey was never an Axis Power in the first place but a neutral power through out of most of the war. In other words, you're referring to WWI when The Ottoman Empire was an enemy to the Allied Powers.

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The occupation of İstanbul and İzmir by the Allies in the aftermath of World War I prompted the establishment of the Turkish national movement.[7] Under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Pasha, a military commander who had distinguished himself during the Battle of Gallipoli, the Turkish War of Independence was waged with the aim of revoking the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres.[6] By September 18, 1922, the occupying armies were repelled and the country saw the birth of the new Turkish state. On November 1, the newly founded parliament formally abolished the Sultanate, thus ending 623 years of Ottoman rule. The Treaty of Lausanne of 1923 led to the international recognition of the sovereignty of the newly formed "Republic of Turkey" as the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, and the republic was officially proclaimed on October 29, 1923, in the new capital of Ankara.[7]

Mustafa Kemal became the republic's first president and subsequently introduced many radical reforms with the aim of founding a new secular republic from the remnants of its Ottoman past.[7] According to the Law on Family Names, the Turkish parliament presented Mustafa Kemal with the honorific name "Atatürk" (Father of the Turks) in 1934.[6]

Turkey entered World War II on the side of the Allies on February 23, 1945 as a ceremonial gesture and became a charter member of the United Nations in 1945.[22] Difficulties faced by Greece after the war in quelling a communist rebellion, along with demands by the Soviet Union for military bases in the Turkish Straits, prompted the United States to declare the Truman Doctrine in 1947. The doctrine enunciated American intentions to guarantee the security of Turkey and Greece, and resulted in large-scale US military and economic support.[23]

After participating with the United Nations forces in the Korean conflict, Turkey joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in 1952, becoming a bulwark against Soviet expansion into the Mediterranean. Following a decade of intercommunal violence on the island of Cyprus and the Greek military coup of July 1974, overthrowing President Makarios and installing Nikos Sampson as dictator, Turkey intervened militarily in 1974. Nine years later the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) was established. The TRNC is recognised only by Turkey.[24]

Following the end of the single-party period in 1945, the multi-party period witnessed tensions over the following decades, and the period between the 1960s and the 1980s was particularly marked by periods of political instability that resulted in a number of military coups d'états in 1960, 1971, 1980 and a post-modern coup d'état in 1997.[25] The liberalization of the Turkish economy that started in the 1980s changed the landscape of the country, with successive periods of high growth and crises punctuating the following decades.[26]


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07 Aug 2008, 8:58 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. You can't even compare the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were legitimate military targets to the atrocities in Nanjiang, and the US Military never had a formation like Unit 731, which conducted biological warfare experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners-of-war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanjiang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

While the actions of the US military were brutal, they were a strategic necessity and ultimately prevented far greater numbers of deaths. The actions of the Japanese military were monstrous and, yes evil.


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07 Aug 2008, 9:14 pm

T-rav20 wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. You can't even compare the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were legitimate military targets to the atrocities in Nanjiang, and the US Military never had a formation like Unit 731, which conducted biological warfare experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners-of-war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanjiang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

While the actions of the US military were brutal, they were a strategic necessity and ultimately prevented far greater numbers of deaths. The actions of the Japanese military were monstrous and, yes evil.


Exactly. The Americans did not psychologically condition their troops the way the Japanese did; that being to be merciless killers, extensions of the Emperor's will. There are many Japanese troops who regret their actions now, no doubt; but there are also many who are still in denial. Japanese schools still teach their biased view of history, as far as I know; unless they've changed their policy in the past couple of years. The only reason they were even allowed to get away with this is because of their proximity to the Soviet Union's satellite states in East Asia. Obviously the Americans wanted them to be content and strong to contend with North Korea and North Vietnam, and the Communist Chinese.