Executive functioning v.s. Efficient thinking

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wavefreak58
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21 Mar 2011, 8:16 am

I've been trying to wrap my brain around executive function issues.

One thing I've noticed is that I have a particular (peculiar?) state of mind that feels very fluid and efficient. Unfortunately, this state of mind does not synchronize very well with the highly structured, technologically oriented, globalized, economically integrated society I live in. Colloquially, my brain doesn't operate on a 9 to 5 schedule. A great deal of my stress comes from this tension between my "best mental states" and this 21st century culture that I find myself living in.

Note that I say best mental state not because there is actually any objective measure of "best" but because that state is where I feel the least anxiety and stress and the most contentment, even peace of mind.

I suspect that at least part of what is called an executive function deficit is my capacity for dealing with this society is simply not what this society wants it to be.

It would appear that I must find a balance between what this culture expects and values versus what I prefer.

I also suspect that I do have some attentional deficits that might be covered under the executive function rubrics. I would like to see culturally neutral descriptions and research of this. Though I suppose true culturally neutral research into such things is impossible.


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Moog
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21 Mar 2011, 8:25 am

Hmm, think I know what you mean.

My problem seems to revolve around integrating and communicating my internal mind behaviour with that of the outside world, and the structures therein. My inner world is fluid and smooth and beautiful and self connective in a way that isn't compatible with the external realm.

I still try, but for the most part, I just have so much stuff in here that I'd love to be able to share that remains unsharable.

But then, maybe everyone feels this way.


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arielhawksquill
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21 Mar 2011, 8:33 am

I keep a running to-do list in a small notebook that is always with me. When I am in the state you describe (which some writers call "flow") then I grab the list and do stuff. When I am not, then I just do the minimum necessary for the moment, and don't push myself to achieve.

I think one thing that distinguishes executive dysfunction from societal expectations is that people with ED can't do things they WANT to do, for themselves and in their own time, which is even more frustrating than not being able to do what others expect of you in their timeframe.



Mdyar
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21 Mar 2011, 9:21 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
I've been trying to wrap my brain around executive function issues.

One thing I've noticed is that I have a particular (peculiar?) state of mind that feels very fluid and efficient. Unfortunately, this state of mind does not synchronize very well with the highly structured, technologically oriented, globalized, economically integrated society I live in. Colloquially, my brain doesn't operate on a 9 to 5 schedule. A great deal of my stress comes from this tension between my "best mental states" and this 21st century culture that I find myself living in.

Note that I say best mental state not because there is actually any objective measure of "best" but because that state is where I feel the least anxiety and stress and the most contentment, even peace of mind.

I suspect that at least part of what is called an executive function deficit is my capacity for dealing with this society is simply not what this society wants it to be.

It would appear that I must find a balance between what this culture expects and values versus what I prefer.

I also suspect that I do have some attentional deficits that might be covered under the executive function rubrics. I would like to see culturally neutral descriptions and research of this. Though I suppose true culturally neutral research into such things is impossible.


Emotional investment :

I've wondered at times if one aspect of this is that 'mirror neuron thingy.' Are not people fundamentally blank from birth and do they not 'get downloaded' emotionally from day one to unconsciously accept the immediate view as reality. Being guided along and conditioned by these heuristics, day after day, adapting ones mental set to accept the challenges and solve these situations and hence reaping the rewards accordingly. Little by little the subconscious mind accepts this and is "programmed." You then become an expert in that predominate culture.

I've read something once about the " gifted" and that they are adept at deprogramming themselves from the mores of society and probably experience this as we do.
But the difference is that they are able to adapt to the schedules and expectations of others, though, hence without the constraints of executive functioning.



wavefreak58
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21 Mar 2011, 9:41 am

arielhawksquill wrote:

I think one thing that distinguishes executive dysfunction from societal expectations is that people with ED can't do things they WANT to do, for themselves and in their own time, which is even more frustrating than not being able to do what others expect of you in their timeframe.


I think this is important. But not being able to make progress towards something that you want can be cultural as well. As a ridiculous example, suppose I want to rob banks for a living. This culture will set itself against such a chosen occupation. Even if I could make and execute good plans for a heist, eventually I would be thwarted. So it seems that what I want is at least partially, maybe significantly, shaped by my culture. I need to want something that is reasonably obtainable. Then I can begin examining what is preventing me from attaining that.


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kfisherx
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21 Mar 2011, 9:48 am

It really no different than ADHD so there are a ton of resources for you to read. The good news is that this can also be managed with medication.

Here are a couple of good sites...

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/8382.html

http://www.chadd.org/AM/Template.cfm?Se ... For_Adults

I have this issue enough that I have to live my life via checklists. :)



alone
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21 Mar 2011, 10:01 am

Moog wrote:
Hmm, think I know what you mean.

My problem seems to revolve around integrating and communicating my internal mind behaviour with that of the outside world, and the structures therein. My inner world is fluid and smooth and beautiful and self connective in a way that isn't compatible with the external realm.

I still try, but for the most part, I just have so much stuff in here that I'd love to be able to share that remains unsharable.

But then, maybe everyone feels this way.


This is me. My inner world is at peace too, it just isn't compatible with the outside world. The outside world has, what appears to me as gross contradictions, and I don't understand why such time is wasted on what could easily be solved. It is beyond me that we are not all here to express this beauty instead of all the other stuff we do and are and try to become.

Thanks Moog



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21 Mar 2011, 10:14 am

kfisherx wrote:
It really no different than ADHD so there are a ton of resources for you to read. The good news is that this can also be managed with medication.

Here are a couple of good sites...

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/8382.html

http://www.chadd.org/AM/Template.cfm?Se ... For_Adults

I have this issue enough that I have to live my life via checklists. :)


I actually tried ADD/ADHD meds at one point. The shrink I was seeing at the time thought I was ADHD. Didn't seem to help much (actuall not at all). I'm wondering if that's because the underlying ASD issues were not being addressed so the inattentiveness was not what needed to be worked on at the time.


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Mdyar
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21 Mar 2011, 10:31 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
kfisherx wrote:
It really no different than ADHD so there are a ton of resources for you to read. The good news is that this can also be managed with medication.

Here are a couple of good sites...

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/8382.html

http://www.chadd.org/AM/Template.cfm?Se ... For_Adults

I have this issue enough that I have to live my life via checklists. :)


I actually tried ADD/ADHD meds at one point. The shrink I was seeing at the time thought I was ADHD. Didn't seem to help much (actuall not at all). I'm wondering if that's because the underlying ASD issues were not being addressed so the inattentiveness was not what needed to be worked on at the time.


Ever thought of the addressing the cholinergic side? Or the acetylcholine neurons?

It's a long journey here, due to many approaches that are specific to your biology, but Nootropics may help. I've read of an anecdote to where it made an autistic more verbal.
He didn't say much and he was much more emotionally expressive watching a TV event. He shared his thoughts. ( Parents noticed this change in their teenager.)

ED is a problem centered in short term memory, and it is my belief that the cholinergic side is the way here. I've improved a lot with these. Then again I'm undiagnosed so this may be tilting at windmills.

-Piracetam
-Acetyl L Carntine
-Phosphatydyl Choline
Many more......

Are you an experimenter? Do you have extra money? Give these a try then I would say wavefreak.



arielhawksquill
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21 Mar 2011, 10:53 am

As the OP said, it is impossible to remove the variable of "culture", so the question isn't an answerable one.

However, I would disagree with the assertion that it is 21st century life which makes things so hard. The existence of things like 24-hour pharmacies, 3rd shift jobs, telecommuting, self-paced study courses, online shopping, on-demand movies, and the like make it better for people who have unusual body clocks to live now than in any previous century.



anbuend
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21 Mar 2011, 10:56 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
kfisherx wrote:
It really no different than ADHD so there are a ton of resources for you to read. The good news is that this can also be managed with medication.

Here are a couple of good sites...

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/8382.html

http://www.chadd.org/AM/Template.cfm?Se ... For_Adults

I have this issue enough that I have to live my life via checklists. :)


I actually tried ADD/ADHD meds at one point. The shrink I was seeing at the time thought I was ADHD. Didn't seem to help much (actuall not at all). I'm wondering if that's because the underlying ASD issues were not being addressed so the inattentiveness was not what needed to be worked on at the time.


Similarly, I did terribly on ADD meds, despite being given several different meds, at several different doses. They didn't help this stuff at all.


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wavefreak58
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21 Mar 2011, 10:58 am

Mdyar wrote:
Are you an experimenter?


Nor really. I'm very skeptical of any mind altering medications. It freaks me out when your read about things like Prozac and in the fine print it says "it is believed" that it works by "such and such a mechanism". It makes me feel like a guinea pig.

Quote:
Do you have extra money?


LOL. No.

Quote:
Give these a try then I would say wavefreak.


I'll look into them. My primary effort right now is towards regulating my schedule, diet and exercise. On a more existential level, I am evaluating what I want to do with the rest of my life. I need to settle on a few goals. I haven't set any real goals in a long, long time because I never seemed to be able to make any genuine progress towards them. I sort of gave up, a defeated dog waiting for the next electric shock (see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness ). At least now I believe I've discovered the core of my difficulties. Maybe once I settle on a direction, I can set about addressing executive functioning issues that impede my progress.


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Zen
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21 Mar 2011, 11:01 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that I have a particular (peculiar?) state of mind that feels very fluid and efficient. Unfortunately, this state of mind does not synchronize very well with the highly structured, technologically oriented, globalized, economically integrated society I live in. Colloquially, my brain doesn't operate on a 9 to 5 schedule. A great deal of my stress comes from this tension between my "best mental states" and this 21st century culture that I find myself living in.

Note that I say best mental state not because there is actually any objective measure of "best" but because that state is where I feel the least anxiety and stress and the most contentment, even peace of mind.


You just articulated what I've realized about myself for years, long before AS was even on my radar. I can remember trying to explain precisely this to a then friend, and he just didn't get it at all. This is what led me to the decision to be self-employed. (At the time, I was partly in denial about the fact that I can't get jobs through interviews anyway and blamed it on the economy, so I can't say it was that which led to the decision.)

We may have 24-hour pharmacies, but we also have 9-to-5 work schedules. Some companies are becoming more flexible, but the kind of flexibility we want is still one of those edgy, futuristic office concepts that most are afraid to embrace.

arielhawksquill wrote:
I think one thing that distinguishes executive dysfunction from societal expectations is that people with ED can't do things they WANT to do, for themselves and in their own time, which is even more frustrating than not being able to do what others expect of you in their timeframe.


That is, unfortunately, me. :(



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21 Mar 2011, 1:15 pm

Zen wrote:
arielhawksquill wrote:
I think one thing that distinguishes executive dysfunction from societal expectations is that people with ED can't do things they WANT to do, for themselves and in their own time, which is even more frustrating than not being able to do what others expect of you in their timeframe.


That is, unfortunately, me. :(


Me too. Sometimes emotional investment can make things easier, but often I find myself either focusing on a single thing when I have something else I want or need to do, or I get distracted across several things at once and keep flipping back and forth.



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21 Mar 2011, 1:38 pm

Me as well.

I also understand the thing about there being times when everything just goes perfectly. I don't know what it is about that, but I know that like... even among autistic people who have never spoken in their lives, once in a blue moon they'll say a totally clear and appropriate sentence, then go back to saying nothing. And it's not a choice for people like that either. But something like that seems to happen for all of us, regardless of what ability is in question, whether EF stuff or something else entirely. Sometimes things just work in a way they never do otherwise, and it's perfect until it ends.


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21 Mar 2011, 7:56 pm

kfisherx wrote:
It really no different than ADHD so there are a ton of resources for you to read. The good news is that this can also be managed with medication.

Here are a couple of good sites...

http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/8382.html

http://www.chadd.org/AM/Template.cfm?Se ... For_Adults

I have this issue enough that I have to live my life via checklists. :)


I also rely on checklists. The way I use checklists is a program on my smartphone and PDA's that automatically shortens the list as I check things off that have been accomplished. Reminder alarms to do things at specific times also help. Staying with a standard routine takes care of everything else.


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