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rombomb2
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31 Dec 2011, 4:13 am

On Fake Diseases

When children behave in ways that schools or parents dislike, this behavior is often characterized as an illness. Depending on the nuances of the behavior concerned, a child might be deemed to have Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD),
Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) or any one of a growing range of other illnesses.

However, there is something unusual about these diseases. First of all, they are defined entirely in terms of their symptoms, not in terms of some malfunction of the body. Why is this unusual? After all, before the underlying cause was known, diseases like AIDS and SARS, too, were recognized in terms of their symptoms. But that is different. It is perfectly meaningful to say: “that looks like SARS, but it might just be a bad cold, or the person might be deliberately exaggerating his symptoms”. Hence also, with real diseases, it is possible to have an asymptomatic disease, like asymptomatic Hepatitis C. But it is not possible, even in principle, to have asymptomatic ADHD.

There is another unusual feature of diseases like ODD that should give us pause: they are typically treated without the patient's consent; and indeed the “treatments” are often physically identical to what would in a non-medical context be called punishments. This breach of human rights is casually justified as being “for their own good”.

ADHD and its ilk really aren't diseases in the same sense as, say, Hepatitis C. They are metaphorical diseases, the names of which denote behaviors that are deemed to be morally unacceptable. In other words, the child has a certain opinion about what he ought to be doing and this opinion is different from his parents' opinion about what he ought to be doing.

Take ODD as an example, the diagnostic criteria are:

A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:

1. often loses temper

2. often argues with adults

3. often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules

4. often deliberately annoys people

5. often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior

6. is often touchy or easily annoyed by others

7. is often angry and resentful

8. is often spiteful or vindictive

Note the many moral judgements that are necessary to make any diagnosis according to this definition: “actively defies”, “deliberately annoys” and so on. These are not deemed to be disease symptoms when a child does them to an intending kidnapper, or to the parents' political opponents at a demonstration, for example. These states of the child's brain become diseases only when a certain condition – disapproval – exists in the brain of another person – the parent or other authority. The treatment is also metaphorical and for ODD it consists of conversations and discipline. Again, this is very different from other diseases: bacteria are not great conversationalists, one cannot debate diabetes, but apparently ODD can be disposed of by talking to it.

The entire purpose of these diseases is, in fact, to give these vile “treatments” a gloss of medical and scientific respectability. Then no attention need be paid to whether the child is right to behave defiantly toward his parents in specific cases. No effort needs to be wasted on such fripperies as rational argument or considering that the child might have a point if they repeatedly refuse to obey their parents or say that they are bored in school. How very convenient for the force-users.

There is one last oddity to note. Professor Michael Fitzgerald of Dublin University has recently said that geniuses such as Socrates, Charles Darwin, and Andy Warhol may have had a mental disease called Asperger's syndrome characterized by not wanting to talk to people and having “restricted” interests with “abnormal” intensity. Now, suppose that having Asperger's syndrome for a while would help you to complete a great work on a “restricted” interest since you wouldn't have to spend time on conversations that would distract you from your work and you would be able to focus intensely on it. Might one not prefer to have Asperger's syndrome to being mentally healthy under such circumstances?

What does that make a person who “cures” it by force?

(originally posted at http://www.settingtheworldtorights.com/node/269)



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31 Dec 2011, 4:53 am

I think I am at the stage at which I just want to ignore everyone who says ADHD doesn't exist. But, ADHD has reams of scientific data supporting its existence, including documentation of neurological differences from neurotypical brains that show that it is a real problem. It's diagnosed through observed behaviors, but what ADHD is defined as is not behavioral. It's neurological, a disorder of self-regulation, motivation, intention, making it very difficult for those who have ADHD to organize themselves, to plan for the future, to stick to things they need to do instead of things they want to do. It is the opposite of a moral judgment as it takes behaviors that are perceived as personal flaws that people choose, and says people are not necessarily choosing, them, at least not with ADHD.

ADHD typically wreaks havoc on one's professional, home, and academic life. This is well beyond what "parents think their children should be doing," given that per Russell Barkley, each untreated person with ADHD costs their community a significant amount of money, and treatment actually reduces or eliminates these costs. Never mind things like a higher chance of getting into automobile accidents that are more dangerous than most accidents NTs get into (on average - it's possible for an ADHDer to get into a less severe accident than an NT, but an NT in the same situation would likely have a less severe accident than that ADHDer).

Please do some research before minimizing the real things people have to live with. Several people on this forum are diagnosed with ADHD, and several others suspect they have it. It looks like 65-75% of all autistic people might meet the criteria for ADHD, for that matter.

Also, the treatment I read for ODD was to constantly express love for your child when they're not being oppositional, and restrict anger and punishment to immediately when they are being oppositional. Make them feel wanted and cared for, and not like inherently bad people. Certainly not all about "punishment."



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31 Dec 2011, 5:21 am

Quote:
Also, the treatment I read for ODD was to constantly express love for your child when they're not being oppositional, and restrict anger and punishment to immediately when they are being oppositional. Make them feel wanted and cared for, and not like inherently bad people. Certainly not all about "punishment."


Yep that's what I have heard too. I have ADHD and I have struggled with it for years so it really pees me off when someone claims it is fake. Obviously you (OP) don't have it otherwise you would know the constant struggle of living with the condition. I also have Tourettes. No doubt I and all the other TS sufferers fake that as well because there is no physical evidence? I'm going to back away from this thread before I say something I regret...


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31 Dec 2011, 5:32 am

Yes, and I mean, the thing is, if you haven't been around a child that's ODD, you may have no idea what the difference between a child with ODD and a child who does not have it is like. Believe me, it's night and day.

I'll also add that I find that a lot of parents, when they find out their children have ADHD or ODD or autism or whatever sometimes become more strict, and even when they accept the diagnosis, they deny the reality of the symptoms. I have yet to meet someone who's using a diagnosis as an excuse for bad parenting.



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31 Dec 2011, 6:44 am

Honestly if the OP came on here saying AS is a disease people would be jumping on him/her immediately. Personally I think if someone denies ADHD is real they may as well doubt AS because of the similarities in symptoms. The difference between ADHD and AS is that there is a way to decrease symptoms through medication and actually gets the person to focus, build on memory skills and be more organised. The medication is a lifesaver for me. I take breaks on the weekend for many reasons but one is to see how I am without the medication. I'm a mess.

I have mild ODD too and now that I'm aware when it happens I still have very little control over it especially when not on medication. I'm sure people on this forum have witnessed me being argumentative for the sake of arguing or deliberately stirring people and what they don't see is me looking for conflict, even if just to watch it. I don't always have those symptoms but when or even after I've had them I feel horrible. I tell people I'm a b*****d just because I don't want to have to explain it to them. It feels almost like hyperfocus, just something that pushes you do keep on doing it with hardly any need to slow down and think things through or think about who you're upsetting.

Quit calling Asperger's, ADHD and ODD diseases. No one will take you seriously until you refer to them as neurological disorders. I doubt anyone will take this seriously though.

I see you didn't mention Pathological Demand Avoidance syndrome. A child always wanting to be in control and who will avoid doing any task until they agree to it. I was like that all through my childhood and teen years and still kinda am. You can try to say that's made up but it's really not. I wasn't diagnosed a s a child and even if I was diagnosed autistic and put on some early intervention I still wouldn't have made much progress, not until I wanted to.


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31 Dec 2011, 11:00 am

Quote:
There is one last oddity to note. Professor Michael Fitzgerald of Dublin University has recently said that geniuses such as Socrates, Charles Darwin, and Andy Warhol may have had a mental disease called Asperger's syndrome characterized by not wanting to talk to people and having “restricted” interests with “abnormal” intensity. Now, suppose that having Asperger's syndrome for a while would help you to complete a great work on a “restricted” interest since you wouldn't have to spend time on conversations that would distract you from your work and you would be able to focus intensely on it. Might one not prefer to have Asperger's syndrome to being mentally healthy under such circumstances?

What does that make a person who “cures” it by force?


This is often why I like to avoid people, especially when I am working on something. I think part of the reason I got A grades at University and was told by lecturers that I had 'a tendency to spot things that others missed and make connections that they did not make' was because I spent hours hyperfocusing on my work and doing research whilst excluding all social activities from my timetable. It was seen as being a little too obsessive for most people but it allowed me to excel and produce pieces of work that didn't just reiterate popular opinion but actually included much original thought. It also allowed me to develop a deep understanding of the subject material at the time.

It does worry me when it comes to going to therapy that the worlds obsession with socialising and thinking/behaving/acting in certain ways will destroy my academic ability...my ability to think differently, see things differently, explore and understand them fully in ways that others do not and as a result my academic grading will plummet. The drugs they give me have already slowed my cognitive functioning, processing abilities and memory (I used to have an outstanding memory that was good enough for me never to need to revise for exams).

If I thought like everybody else I would have been getting C grades like them, not A grades.

I like to give people something to think about rather than just joining in with the rest of the group by doing and thinking the same things as them. People are 'too' conditioned and original thought and originality is dying in society!

Annoyingly what got me labelled as "extremely intelligent" (their words not mine) by my colleges gets me labelled as mentally ill amongst general society. I feel like they are trying to dumb me down with their therapy and drugs as well as killing my individuality and originality all in the name of conformity.

My colleges labelled me as gifted whilst society labels me as crazy.



Last edited by bumble on 31 Dec 2011, 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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31 Dec 2011, 11:01 am

I wanted to get on the disease language, but I was kind of stopped by the assertion that ODD and ADHD are fake.



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31 Dec 2011, 11:02 am

The OP didn't write that. It was from the link he posted at the bottom. I think he was just trying to share it with us about the ignorance.



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31 Dec 2011, 11:22 am

I am not entirely sure that things like Aspergers are actually diseases though. Another facet of human nature or state of being yes, but a disease no. These conditions cause difficulties in functioning in society, yes? So that is why they are labelled as diseases or illnesses...yes?

Let us just look for a moment at exactly what 'Society' is.

Society is a construct that is put together by various normals (freudian slip there as I meant norms but normals will do lol), values and the expectation of conformity. Those norms, values, rules etc are actually defined by man not by nature. Nature on the other hand creates variety as part of the process of evolution. Society stumps evolution by limiting variety. Society actually works against the laws of nature. It is not natural. It not a natural way of life for our species. Society itself is abnormal in its constructs and insistance on conformity. It is stopping human evolution and progress not enhancing it in many ways by removing variation and insisting that we all conform to the same sets of standards, rules and behaviour.

Anything that does not fit into society in a way that society deems it should is labelled as abnormal. The difficulties in functioning are not caused by the illness itself but by the rules of society and societal expectations. So the difficulties are created by MAN not the disease. By mans lack of acceptance of difference, mans insistance on conformity and so on.

What would nature define these disease as? Not society but nature itself. In the natural world, outside of mans self created rules, norms and values would these diseases actually exist as diseases within nature itself or would it merely be another form of natural variation?

Would these diseases be maladaptive outside of society? Would these diseases be problems in a different society governed by different social rules where traits of those diseases were seen as desirable and attractive rather than an annoyance or different? The answer in many cases is probably no.

If not they are not diseases, they are man made diseases because they don't conform to man made rules in the way that man wants them to. So they label them as wrong, and rather than adapt society they try to cure the made up disease.

The only reason that many people labelled with these conditions cannot function in society is because society insists on conformity and labells everything that does not fit into its standards as abnormal.

We are the only species who live the way we do, I think you will find that in terms of nature itself, society itself is actually abnormal in its constructs. It is no wonder that we are having so much difficulty trying to be a part of it.



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31 Dec 2011, 11:28 am

"Disease" is loaded language, so people prefer to avoid it.

I don't think ADHD, autism, or ODD could be described as "diseases."



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31 Dec 2011, 11:34 am

Disease implies a defect or illness.

I don't consider many of the traits of Aspergers or ASDs to be symptoms of a disease either and I don't consider the people who have them to be in the least bit defective. In a world that was more accepting of difference I don't think they would necessarily be labelled as being 'ill'. But many of them are labelled as mental illnesses or mental defects (which is the same as saying it is a disease in a way).

The people with these traits should not be being marginalised by society or treated as though there is something fundamentally wrong with them. That needs to stop and society needs to learn that variety can be a good thing. There are many traits associated with conditions like Aspergers that could indeed be considered to be a gift.

Edited to add that also people who think of themselves as being defective need to stop doing that. They are not as defective as society likes to make them think they are. They are, at the end of the day, living human beings. They may be different but not defective.

A few years ago I was talking to someone online and they, in a very nervous manner, told me that they suffered from Aspergers. They seemed to think that, on telling me, I would run a mile. It is a shame that people are lead to feel that way by society. Why would I run a mile because someone has Aspergers? He was an incredibly sweet person.

We need more acceptance in society and in order to gain that we need to stop labelling everything that is different as wrong or as a disorder, when in many ways it is more of a natural variation of the human species.



Last edited by bumble on 31 Dec 2011, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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31 Dec 2011, 11:39 am

Well I do not think the disorders you mentioned are fake........also as a rule mental illnesses/disorders are usually diagnosed based on symptoms not underlying causes. I don't know of a single mental disorder/illness/condition that they actually know the exact cause for as far as they can tell there are lots of various factors that contribute to these things. Obviously a mental disorder can not be seen like a physical disorder can be.....so symptoms are really all they can base a diagnoses on. With things like AIDS and Cancer I am pretty sure they have tests that allow them to actually see that someone has an illness like that.


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31 Dec 2011, 11:44 am

bumble wrote:
Disease implies a defect or illness.

I don't consider many of the traits of Aspergers or ASDs to be symptoms of a disease either and I don't consider the people who have them to be in the least bit defective. In a world that was more accepting of difference I don't think they would necessarily be labelled as being 'ill'. But many of them are labelled as mental illnesses or mental defects (which is the same as saying it is a disease in a way).

The people with these traits should not be being marginalised by society or treated as though there is something fundamentally wrong with them. That needs to stop and society needs to learn that variety can be a good thing. There are many traits associated with conditions like Aspergers that could indeed be considered to be a gift.

Edited to add that also people who think of themselves as being defective need to stop doing that. They are not as defective as society likes to make them think they are. They are, at the end of the day, living human beings. They may be different but not defective.

A few years ago I was talking to someone online and they, in a very nervous manner, told me that they suffered from Aspergers. They seemed to think that, on telling me, I would run a mile. It is a shame that people are lead to feel that way by society. Why would I run a mile because someone has Aspergers? He was an incredibly sweet person.

We need more acceptance in society and in order to gain that we need to stop labelling everything that is different as wrong or as a disorder, when in many ways it is more of a natural variation of the human species.



Well they way I see it there are some good aspects of having AS, but that does not mean it does not cause any defects or whatever.....I mean I don't know about anyone else but I never asked to feel like I have a wall between me and the rest of the world. I feel that is part of the AS that feeling.......as not being able to socially interact like a typical person tends to cause that feeling. I also don't particularly like that its hard for me to express empathy its only ever caused people to accuse me of not caring, being selfish when in reality I might feel more empathy than the average person. Then there is the slower processing speed I seem to have which I also imagine has something to do with the AS....but maybe the depression as well. There are also the sensory issues......though that causes cool things like me being able to feel a storm approaching it also makes many situations I end up in very uncomfortable. I hate to always be the one suggesting the lights be turned down, t.vs/stereos be turned down, to leave places like the grocery store sooner than planned ect makes me look like a b*tchy complainer type probably.

So yeah I guess though I think there are some benifits to this condition, I can't just pretend the negative aspects don't exist.


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31 Dec 2011, 11:50 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I do not think the disorders you mentioned are fake........also as a rule mental illnesses/disorders are usually diagnosed based on symptoms not underlying causes. I don't know of a single mental disorder/illness/condition that they actually know the exact cause for as far as they can tell there are lots of various factors that contribute to these things. Obviously a mental disorder can not be seen like a physical disorder can be.....so symptoms are really all they can base a diagnoses on. With things like AIDS and Cancer I am pretty sure they have tests that allow them to actually see that someone has an illness like that.


Hmm I am not sure that some of the symptoms they do list as part of the disorder for Asperges are symtpoms of an mental illness etc.

1 Difficulty in reading body language. I know plenty of NTs who cannot read body language to save their blooming lives. They always think they are right when reading someone but actually, they usually get it wrong. This causes them to misjudge people. The only difference between an Aspie and an NT in that front is that they are more honest. They do not delude themselves into thinking that they can interpret someone by their body language whereas NTs convince themselves that they can (when in fact, often, they cannot).

2 The same goes for empathy. The number of times I have had an NT think they have felt what I am feeling and to claim that they understand my feelings only to go on to show, in their next sentence, that not only have they not understood my feelings but they are thinking I am feeling something that I am not feeling at all. Again they are deluding themselves into believing that they are empathising and sharing my feelings when clearly are not.

I am begining to think that NTs should be diagnosed with socially related delusional disorder (SRDD).

3 Intensive interests. The normals just need to experience true passion for something in order to understand this one. Passion for something is not a bloody symptom of a disorder.

4 Routines

NTs havd them they just have different ones.

and so on.

I really fail to see how some of those symptoms are a disorder. NTs cause more confusion in their world with the fake empathy and feigned ability to read body language accurately than people who actually take the time to say what they mean and mean what they say. At least you know where you stand with someone who does not expect you decipher some imaginary code.



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31 Dec 2011, 12:06 pm

Right, NTs do have routines but it doesn't impair them like it does for people on the autism spectrum. I once read in a comment to some article by a parent who said her son has AS. Every night before bed, he always has a glass of milk. One day they were out and her son would have had a major meltdown lasting hours at night if he didn't have his cup of milk, so she would be forced to run to the store with her son at night to get a gallon of milk or their lives be a living hell. Now that is an impairment since he would have melted down for not being able to have a glass of milk. No NT would meltdown if they can't do their usual routine.



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31 Dec 2011, 12:07 pm

bumble wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I do not think the disorders you mentioned are fake........also as a rule mental illnesses/disorders are usually diagnosed based on symptoms not underlying causes. I don't know of a single mental disorder/illness/condition that they actually know the exact cause for as far as they can tell there are lots of various factors that contribute to these things. Obviously a mental disorder can not be seen like a physical disorder can be.....so symptoms are really all they can base a diagnoses on. With things like AIDS and Cancer I am pretty sure they have tests that allow them to actually see that someone has an illness like that.


Hmm I am not sure that some of the symptoms they do list as part of the disorder for Asperges are symtpoms of an mental illness etc.

1 Difficulty in reading body language. I know plenty of NTs who cannot read body language to save their blooming lives. They always think they are right when reading someone but actually, they usually get it wrong. This causes them to misjudge people. The only difference between an Aspie and an NT in that front is that they are more honest. They do not delude themselves into thinking that they can interpret someone by their body language whereas NTs convince themselves that they can (when in fact, often, they cannot).

2 The same goes for empathy. The number of times I have had an NT think they have felt what I am feeling and to claim that they understand my feelings only to go on to show, in their next sentence, that not only have they not understood my feelings but they are thinking I am feeling something that I am not feeling at all. Again they are deluding themselves into believing that they are empathising and sharing my feelings when clearly are not.

I am begining to think that NTs should be diagnosed with socially related delusional disorder (SRDD).

3 Intensive interests. The normals just need to experience true passion for something in order to understand this one. Passion for something is not a bloody symptom of a disorder.

4 Routines

NTs havd them they just have different ones.

and so on.

I really fail to see how some of those symptoms are a disorder. NTs cause more confusion in their world with the fake empathy and feigned ability to read body language accurately than people who actually take the time to say what they mean and mean what they say. At least you know where you stand with someone who does not expect you decipher some imaginary code.


Well I was talking about symptoms of AS, not symptoms of other mental illnesses.

As for body language I do not really rely on it because its been clear since i was pretty young I kinda fail at it, I do however seem to have an intresting sense about people I can kind of feel what sort of mood people around me are in and such so that is usually what I use to try and determine how people around me might feel and how it might cause them to react to me.

I've ran into simular experiances having to do with empathy......maybe with NTs the point is 'at least I said something with the intention of helping.' with me its more like 'I really don't know what to say, so i might as well not say anything, but i wish I could because if I say nothing maybe it looks like I don't care.' so I overanalize it and can't seem to figure out how to really express empathy.

Also I don't think there is really a reason to label neurotypical people as having a mental condition, simply because some NTs are ignorant about people on the autism spectrum or with other disorders.......but I do kinda see your point a lot of times it seems NTs are confident in their ideas about the world and fail to realise when they have it wrong.

I do have some intense intrests, but my depression and PTSD probably interfere with that as both of those can decrease motivation and make everything seem pointless. So to outside observers it might look more like I don't have any really intense intrests. Routines are not really something that play much of a role unless the absense of a routine could be considered a routine in itself.

Those symptoms are a disorder, because enough people are under the impression that some of these symptoms negatively interfere with an individuals ability to function, and since some symptoms I experiance negatively interfere with my functioning I consider it a disorder, regardless of the positive aspects of it.


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