Why Aspergers isn't even a disorder

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Sweetleaf
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19 Jun 2012, 7:23 am

again_with_this wrote:

Atomsk wrote:

I agree with that - that the primary disability is social - while the other things can be debilitating, it is often how others react, to even the non-social parts of the disability, that causes issues. It's also not how the autistic person feels themselves about socialization, but rather how the NTs feel about it, that causes difficulty, and how our low socialization and social skills can cause problems with things like advancing in your field. Even in mine, music, where I am (and I really do not mean to brag at all) very gifted, I have difficulties because of how I socialize, and how much I socialize. All that should matter is the music, in my opinion, but the main thing other musicians seem to care about is how I socialize with them. Talent alone can take you only so far, but socialization can take you farther.

And this is why I was skeptical of Callista's post, because it actually seems to be trying to undermine the key problem with this disability. None of the secondary problems really, in my opinion, seem like they'd constitute a true disability. So it really is a "social thing" in terms of being disabled (or rather, not being able to mesh well with the system that the "normies" abide by).

What would you say is your biggest gripe with this disability? (I guess you sort of answered this already).

EDIT: And that's also why I'm not sure of XFilesGeek's reply that if someone's only problems are social, they're probably not an Aspie, because, what other truly disabling traits are there? And I'm asking this in all seriousness, because if there is more to it than a "social thing," then what are some of these things?

I find the sensory issues to be pretty severe, and I get overwhelmed pretty easily...and seem to have some issues with processing input. Then of course there are the social issues, and some of those would likely exist even if we had a different society.

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again_with_this
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19 Jun 2012, 7:28 am

Verdandi wrote:

Given the large number of traits listed for diagnosis combined with the small number of traits required, there aren't any required traits. Any two people diagnosed with AS can have very different symptoms.

But there must be something that binds them together, something that's common in all of them to meet that definition.

Verdandi wrote:

I think if someone strictly has social impairments, they are more likely to meet the criteria for something like schizoid personality disorder than AS.

But if the impairments are caused by an inability to "read" other people, to naturally socialize they way they do, and to not comprehend their social "logic," or to reject aspects of it, isn't that what Asperger's is?

The personality disorders, while they could affect some aspies, also affect NTs. A schizoid could fully comprehend NT socializing, and be able to do it as naturally as the next NT, but he just wouldn't enjoy it. Asperger's, at least I thought, was the inability to naturally do these things the way NTs do.

Last edited by again_with_this on 19 Jun 2012, 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

Wandering_Stranger
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19 Jun 2012, 7:29 am

again_with_this wrote:

Atomsk wrote:

Looking at diagnostic criteria though, it does require more than -just- social issues to get an Asperger's diagnosis in the first place. Since "having AS" is a concept created by humans, and at this time one must present more than just social issues to get a diagnosis, then technically it is impossible to have AS if you -only- show the social symptoms.

I do think that social disabilities are the main issue and most problematic for people with autism in general, though, particularly if that also includes verbal communication.

Well the Asperger's diagnosis, if I'm not mistaken, excludes verbal communicative problems. So while verbal problems may be key issues for other autistics, it's apparently not a factor in Asperger's.

My speech problems are the reason why I'm not diagnosed with AS.

AS is far more than just social problems.

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19 Jun 2012, 7:32 am

Wandering_Stranger wrote:

AS is far more than just social problems.

OK, cool. What are some of these things? I want to know.

again_with_this
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19 Jun 2012, 7:33 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

OK, give me a few examples of your sensory issues and what happens to you when you encounter them.

As for the input thing, isn't most of that social input anyway, tying back in with the whole social disconnect from the NTs?

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19 Jun 2012, 7:35 am

again_with_this wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

But there must be something that binds them together, something that's common in all of them to meet that definition.

Must there be? I believe the binding element is how the brain processes input, output, and information/data storage. This isn't explained in any symptom lists because you cannot observe these processes reliably, at least not without an expensive brain scan.

again_with_this wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

I think if someone strictly has social impairments, they are more likely to meet the criteria for something like schizoid personality disorder than AS.

No. That's part of what Asperger's Syndrome is, but not the whole picture. RRBs are also part of the diagnostic picture. And you don't actually need to have an impairment in reading people. There's four criteria and you only need to meet two of them. You might be impaired in expressing nonverbal communication, but be able to understand other people to some extent, technically, according to the criteria.

again_with_this wrote:

The personality disorders, while they could affect some aspies, also affect NTs. A schizoid could fully comprehend NT socializing, and be able to do it as naturally as the next NT, but he just wouldn't enjoy it. Asperger's, at least I thought, was the inability to naturally do these things the way NTs do.

Schizoid personality disorder is described in terms of social deficits. If they didn't have those social deficits, they wouldn't qualify for a diagnosis of SPD. Some people with SPD might understand NT socializing, but I do not believe they all do.

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19 Jun 2012, 7:45 am

again_with_this wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Here's an input problem I have at times. I notice it more when I'm playing video games (and far more likely to be overstimulated visually) but it happens elsewhere too. I was playing an online multiplayer game recently, and when I'd played too long I would stop processing visual input, at least partially. I knew I had to use the keys to move around, but I'd confuse enemies for architecture, or not recognize architecture at all and run into it uselessly because it would take me time to notice I wasn't actually moving. When that sort of thing becomes more severe, you get to something like "meaning blindness" or visual agnosia, where one simply ceases to process visual input. This often happens to me when I have to focus on listening carefully - although that often causes auditory processing problems and I may not understand what I hear as well. Not just social input, but any kind of sensory input.

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19 Jun 2012, 7:48 am

Verdandi wrote:

again_with_this wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

But there must be something that binds them together, something that's common in all of them to meet that definition.

This is interesting, I'm learning here. But wouldn't such differences in brain processing manifest with some commonality between those who share that difference from the NTs?

again_with_this wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

I think if someone strictly has social impairments, they are more likely to meet the criteria for something like schizoid personality disorder than AS.

Verdandi wrote:

No. That's part of what Asperger's Syndrome is, but not the whole picture.

Then in theory, if a person is able to fully understand social cues with ease, but is prone to non-social difficulties like stimming and incessant preoccupation with one subject, he could have Asperger's? Whereas, someone who struggles with social cues but doesn't have any other symptoms might not have Asperger's?

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19 Jun 2012, 7:51 am

again_with_this wrote:

This is interesting, I'm learning here. But wouldn't such differences in brain processing manifest with some commonality between those who share that difference from the NTs?

Likely, but how is it observed in terms of behavior, which is how the diagnosis is determined? I have a lot of things in common with some people who have more and more severe symptoms than I do, who are diagnosed with autism, and I have things in common with some people diagnosed with AS. I don't think all of these things would appear on a symptom list, simply because they won't be observed as what they are. Instead, they're likely to be classified as RRBs, depending on what one does with it. Similarly, you can have two autistic people who spend a lot of time just staring at walls, but they might not be doing it for the same reason.

again_with_this wrote:

Technically, yes. I suspect that doesn't happen very often, thoughthough (the reading with ease, I was trying to make a rhetorical point and I think I overreached). But yes.

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19 Jun 2012, 8:00 am

Verdandi wrote:

again_with_this wrote:

Technically, yes. I suspect that doesn't happen very often, thoughthough (the reading with ease, I was trying to make a rhetorical point and I think I overreached). But yes.

But I think the point I was getting at is that not being able to read people with ease seems to be the one common variable among aspies, at least the ones on this site. While other issues may or may not be present, the "social thing" seems to be the defining trait of Asperger's. A lot of other nuances of the brain being different are probably present, but how they manifest and how debilitating they are would vary aspie to aspie, but that common trait seems to be universal.

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19 Jun 2012, 8:04 am

Okay, so what are you trying to do by narrowing AS down to one common trait?

Wandering_Stranger
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19 Jun 2012, 8:08 am

again_with_this wrote:

Wandering_Stranger wrote:

AS is far more than just social problems.

OK, cool. What are some of these things? I want to know.

- sensory difficulties
- special interests
- love of routines

Verdandi
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19 Jun 2012, 8:13 am

again_with_this wrote:

I also think you'll find that this trait doesn't exist to the same degree in everyone diagnosed with AS. Some people find it much more difficult than others. Joe90 says she can read people, but anxiety makes it hard for her to use the information. I don't really read people well at all. If the tests I took recently are accurate, I am actually fairly bad at it. Social imagination's another thing. Check out this thread here and look at the degrees of variation in answers among people who have AS:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt161934.html

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19 Jun 2012, 8:14 am

Verdandi wrote:

Okay, so what are you trying to do by narrowing AS down to one common trait?

I'm trying to dispel the notion that someone can't be an Aspie if they have no other apparent disabilities other than the social clash with neurotypicals.

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19 Jun 2012, 8:15 am

Wandering_Stranger wrote:

again_with_this wrote:

Wandering_Stranger wrote:

AS is far more than just social problems.

OK, cool. What are some of these things? I want to know.

- sensory difficulties
- special interests
- love of routines

Do you find your special interests, in and of themselves, to be disabilities?

Are your sensory difficulties ever so bad that you can't function at all?

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19 Jun 2012, 8:17 am

Verdandi wrote:

Where can I take some of these test regarding social ability?

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