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mmcool
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12 Nov 2014, 8:09 pm

Does autism affect getting a gun certificate?



AspieUtah
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12 Nov 2014, 8:43 pm

mmcool wrote:
Does autism affect getting a gun certificate?

In the United Kingdom, no; but, national law requires that "particular attention should be paid" to those who exhibit "signs of depression, suicidal tendencies?periods of emotional instability or unpredictable behaviour? as well as a history of hospital stays, guardianships or restrictive orders under the Mental Health Act of 1983 (UK Firearms Law 2002).

Quote:
...While there is no law banning the purchase of firearms by citizens with a history of mental illness, when assessing an applicant?s fitness, ?particular attention should be paid? to those who exhibit ?signs of depression, suicidal tendencies?periods of emotional instability or unpredictable behaviour? as well as a history of hospital stays, guardianships or restrictive orders under the Mental Health Act of 1983 (UK Firearms Law 2002)....

GUNVICTIMSACTION.ORG: "What the US could learn from UK background checks" (September 4, 2014)
http://www.gunvictimsaction.org/blog/wh ... und-checks

In the United States, it depends on how the federal courts determine the meaning of the two executive orders that the president signed on Jan. 3, 2014 to override federal privacy laws and require information about the involuntary commitment of an individual who possesses, or wishes to possess a firearm.

Quote:
A few weeks ago on January 3rd, 2014, the Obama administration quietly announced two new executive orders regarding gun control policy. With these pronouncements President Obama, after failing to gain public support, and a failed attempt to push legislation through Congress, has made absolutely clear his intention of now unilaterally imposing his gun control mandates.

These new executive orders would allow the federal database access to mental health records by offering an exemption to existing laws that protect patient privacy, essentially overriding the Health Insurance and Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) privacy rule protections, in place for individual?s medical records.

States that were once required by law to protect personal medical information will now be required to submit their patient?s private and confidential records into the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

[...]

The executive order claims to "clarify", that citizens that are involuntarily committed to inpatient or outpatient facilities can be prohibited from owning a firearm. To allay concerns, the administration goes on to state that seeking help for mental health issues doesn?t prohibit a person from firearm ownership. The White House states, "The proposed rule will not change the fact that seeking help for mental health problems or getting treatment does not make someone legally prohibited from having a firearm...."

BENSWANN.COM: "A 'mental health' assault on the Second Amendment? by executive order" (January 29, 2014)
http://www.benswann.com/a-mental-health ... tive-order


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Woodpecker
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13 Nov 2014, 12:56 am

I am not an "antigun" person, but I strongly hold the view that a gun license should only be issued to a person who has a clear need for a gun AND is "of sound mind and sober habit".

You will need to be able to prove that you have a valid reason for having a gun, and that you are neither a danger to yourself and others. Also you will need to show that you have the means to keep the gun in a secure place to prevent it being lost or stolen.

On the "sound mind and sober habit", I think that a person with AS can be of "sound mind and sober habit". Plenty of NTs are not of "sound mind and sober habit".

The sound mind / sober habit requirement would be failed by quite a range of people. I will run through some of them

Drunks
Wife beaters
People who have commited gun crimes in the past
People who have medical conditions which make them pass out or dooze off
Walty Mitty types who keep running their mouths off and doing odd things
People who have a anger problem

There are a lot more classes of people who fail the "sound mind / sober habit" requirement sadly I do not have the time to list them.


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Health is a state of physical, mental and social wellbeing and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity :alien: I am not a jigsaw, I am a free man !

Diagnosed under the DSM5 rules with autism spectrum disorder, under DSM4 psychologist said would have been AS (299.80) but I suspect that I am somewhere between 299.80 and 299.00 (Autism) under DSM4.


AspieUtah
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13 Nov 2014, 11:32 am

In the United States at least, we don't need to prove our worthiness to enjoy our constitutional rights. Such rights are natural (God given) and pre-exist the Constitution for the United States of America itself. The constitution merely acts as a guarantee to protect such rights, not to "give" them. In other words, there is no requirement to prove a "need" to own and possess a firearm here. With the recent U.S. Supreme Court opinions about District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), and McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010), which affirmed the Second Amendment to the Constitution and incorporated the amendment's provisions to the states and local governments, many states and local governments have been required to repeal overly expansive firearm laws.

Having stated that, we do also recognize certain violations of law that result in an individual losing certain constitutional rights (at least temporarily) including the rights to keep and bear arms. These violations include being convicted of any violent crime (misdemeanor or felony), any drug- or alcohol-related crime, any unlawful sale or transfer of a firearm, and any firearm possession in locations which have been designated secure areas. By federal and state laws, secure areas don't include federal parks, forests or fisheries, or private lands and facilities. Businesses and churches may choose to prohibit firearm possession (most don't), but, in states like Utah, must post signs or other communications about the prohibition.

Most importantly for this discussion, federal law requires an adjudication by a court of law that an individual is "mentally incompetent," "mentally deficient" or a "danger to the individual or others" to restrict or prohibit the individual's lawful ownership or possession of a firearm, though a few states still try to enforce more expansive laws. As I mentioned previously, the president's two most recent executive orders about involuntary commitment in a mental-health facility and sharing mental-health records (apart from privacy laws) are redundant with existing federal law, but might be interpreted by some courts as restricting or prohibiting the Second Amendment rights of an individual with Asperger's Syndrome (AS) or other autism-spectrum disorders (ASDs), though my own research (and that of many constitutional lawyers and academics) suggests that it has no such authority.

Therefore, your only "sound mind / sober habit" activity that would probably not already be restricted or prohibited is that about "Walty Mitty types who keep running their mouths off and doing odd things." Absent any other criminal activity, merely being argumentative and strange is constitutionally protected in the United States. Your other categories on spot on, otherwise, and already restricted or prohibited here.


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tetris
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13 Nov 2014, 1:03 pm

It is pretty damn difficult to get a firearms certificate. You must have multiple referees, convince the police why you need one etc. Autism probably would, I don't think it's a disqualifying factor like criminal convictions but it depends how it affects you. There are very few reasons why anyone needs a gun, unless you are a farmer or experienced hunter.

Taken from the government website

You can get a firearm or shotgun certificate application form from the firearms licensing unit of your local police force.

You must:

complete an application form
provide 4 passport photographs
have 2 referees for a firearm certificate and 1 referee for shotgun certificate
pay the fee for the certificate you are applying for
You can get the fees from your local police force. The fee amounts can be found from the firearms licensing unit of the police force where you live.

You must also prove to the chief officer of police that you?re allowed to have a firearms certificate and pose no danger to public safety or to the peace.

A shotgun certificate won?t be given or renewed if the chief officer of police has a reason that you shouldn?t be allowed to have a shotgun under the Firearms Act. Or if they don?t think you have a good reason to have, buy or acquire a shotgun.

A certificate usually lasts 5 years from the date it was issued or renewed.

And this is from the metropolitan police website

Applicants for firearms have to show ?good reason? for possession of each and every firearm.

How are applications refused or revoked?
A firearm certificate may be refused or revoked if the applicant/holder is:

A danger to public safety
Of intemperate habits
Of unsound mind
Unfit to be entrusted with such a firearm
No longer has ?good reason? for possession



friedmacguffins
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13 Nov 2014, 1:45 pm

My overall approach is like that of Allan Quatermain from the fictional 'Leauge of Extraordinary Gentleman' movie, in that I am conservative, if unhappy. I respect the sanctity of life, and the concept of authority, if not the policies of the administration.

Expecting busybodies to cause more interefence than convenience, I have never formally reported any psycholgical complaints.



Dillogic
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13 Nov 2014, 1:51 pm

Woodpecker wrote:
... who has a clear need for a gun ... .


Need and want are the two things that define whether you're living free or controlled.

Luckily for you though, the UK is the latter and not free.



PlainsAspie
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13 Nov 2014, 5:37 pm

I'd say having Autism makes one more likely to need a gun since we're more likely to be victims of crime.



Marcia
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13 Nov 2014, 6:20 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Woodpecker wrote:
... who has a clear need for a gun ... .


Need and want are the two things that define whether you're living free or controlled.

Luckily for you though, the UK is the latter and not free.


Living in the UK I certainly feel more free knowing that gun ownership is controlled.



AspieUtah
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13 Nov 2014, 6:24 pm

PlainsAspie wrote:
I'd say having Autism makes one more likely to need a gun since we're more likely to be victims of crime.

Where is the emoticon for high-five?!?

Actually, most researchers have reluctantly admitted that the increase in firearm ownership in the United States over the last 22 years has been the leading cause of the continuing decrease in violent crimes. The recent FBI violent-crime data shows that such crimes have returned to 1968 levels; despite what the mainstream media would like us to believe.


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tetris
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13 Nov 2014, 6:43 pm

PlainsAspie wrote:
I'd say having Autism makes one more likely to need a gun since we're more likely to be victims of crime.


That is not a valid reason for owning a gun. At least not in the UK and I'm very glad it's not a reason.



AspieUtah
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13 Nov 2014, 6:53 pm

tetris wrote:
That is not a valid reason for owning a gun. At least not in the UK and I'm very glad it's not a reason.

It is a valid reason if you are Prince Philip or Prince William or Madonna or Guy Richie. In other words, watch the pencil-whipped papers fly when the applicant is "somebody" instead of a "subject."

In the United States, needing a firearm is a legally valid reason even in states which are considered to be anti-gun.


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tetris
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13 Nov 2014, 7:11 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
tetris wrote:
That is not a valid reason for owning a gun. At least not in the UK and I'm very glad it's not a reason.

It is a valid reason if you are Prince Philip or Prince William or Madonna or Guy Richie. In other words, watch the pencil-whipped papers fly when the applicant is "somebody" instead of a "subject."

In the United States, needing a firearm is a legally valid reason even in states which are considered to be anti-gun.


What has the royal family and famous people got to do autism and owning guns?

In the UK, the only reason you will ever need a gun is if you are a farmer or a hunter. The average person living anywhere in the UK does need a gun, it is the UK after all. There will always be the odd occasion when some nutter has a gun, but they are few and far between, unlike the US where it seems things happen on a big scale weekly. There is not a gun culture in the UK, hence the reason why we have very sensible strict rules on gun ownership, which is also why we don't have a gun culture.



AspieUtah
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13 Nov 2014, 7:26 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
In the United States, needing a firearm is a legally valid reason even in states which are considered to be anti-gun.

As I stated:

BENSWANN.COM: "California court ruling could bring about the end of conceal-carry restrictions" (November 13, 2014)
http://www.benswann.com/california-cour ... strictions

Quote:
A ruling by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals could allow more citizens to obtain a conceal-carry permit, and advocates estimate about two million people will apply for permits thanks to the ruling.

Previously, people who applied for carry concealed permits had to have a reason for wanting the permit, which the court ruled was a violation of citizen?s Second Amendment rights.

[...]

This ruling though gets rid of the requirement and will allow people to apply for a permit without such a hindrance.


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tetris
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13 Nov 2014, 8:26 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
In the United States, needing a firearm is a legally valid reason even in states which are considered to be anti-gun.

As I stated:

BENSWANN.COM: "California court ruling could bring about the end of conceal-carry restrictions" (November 13, 2014)
http://www.benswann.com/california-cour ... strictions

Quote:
A ruling by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals could allow more citizens to obtain a conceal-carry permit, and advocates estimate about two million people will apply for permits thanks to the ruling.

Previously, people who applied for carry concealed permits had to have a reason for wanting the permit, which the court ruled was a violation of citizen?s Second Amendment rights.

[...]

This ruling though gets rid of the requirement and will allow people to apply for a permit without such a hindrance.


This thread, however, is in relation to the United Kingdoms firearms certificates.



AspieUtah
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13 Nov 2014, 8:51 pm

tetris wrote:
This thread, however, is in relation to the United Kingdoms firearms certificates.

Indeed, it is also about the probable unfair restrictions that such a certificate might impose on an entire class of people based only on their neurological differences, not their qualifications. As such, this kind of restriction is something about which the United States has some recent experience. In fact, given the rapidity with which the United States has returned to a public policy which upholds its supreme laws (the Constitution for the United States of America), there is hope for the OP and others, however distant, who wish to avoid the persecution and prosecution that comes with such arbitrary restriction of their natural rights to self defense. Besides, comparing and contrasting is a conversational tool to help find the truth in statements. But, in keeping with your expectation that this topic remain solidly about U.K. citizens achieving gun certificates, I offer a history http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle558-20100221-07.html of U.K. firearm-restriction laws. It is the facts within the commentary that I hope are read and discussed, not the writer's opinions.


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