Asperger Syndrome vs. Borderline Personality Disorder

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if this article (<link) is any indication, women may remain underdiagnosed. it seems the ideas behind the change in the DSM (folding Asperger's into the greater autism spectrum) are 1. to err on the side of underdiagnosis rather than overdiagnosis, and 2. ease fears of an "autism epidemic" (rather than clarify that Asperger's is actually autism). i hope i'm wrong.

i am convinced, though, that any female behavior indicative of "something wrong" is assumed to be an emotionally based reaction and assessed as such. i did this to myself for many years, as there really is no other model for interpreting female behavior.

Here's how I see it.

We (people in general) have different types of thinking. There's intellectual thinking, social thinking, and emotional thinking.

With AS, there's a tendency to use intellectual thinking more than social thinking. For some of us, we are weak in social thinking. For some, we're exceptional at intellectual thinking and so tend to use that. For some, there's a weakness in reading the inputs that social thinking uses (non-verbal cues). Or maybe distractions (sensitivities). And there may be moments of emotional thinking (tantrums and melt downs), but the general tendency is towards intellectual thinking.

There's a lack of balance in between the 3 types of thinking. Growing, healing, "cure" (different but overlapping concepts), these come from learning to better balance the 3 types of thinking. This may include learning to trust our social thinking more. This may include learning workarounds for weak social thinking. And it means each part of the mind, with it's type of thinking, listening to what the other parts of the mind, with their different ways of thinking, have to say, and working together, rather than one type of thinking taking over.

With BPD, there's also a lack of balance between these types of thinking. The person with BPD (if they don't also have AS) doesn't have a weakness in social thinking. But they have a weakness in emotional thinking, or maybe an inability to balance it with the other types of thinking. So, they do fine in social relationships that don't trigger strong emotions, but closer relationships, they get into emotional thinking without balancing it with social thinking and intellectual thinking. At least sometimes.

So, both BPD and AS have a problem with balancing social thinking, intellectual thinking, and emotional thinking. But the patterns are different. With both, though, improvement can be found in learning to find that balance. A complication in that, though, is being different from normal. With AS, I think basically everyone on the spectrum has innate differences. With BPD, it may be that some do, some don't. Those innate differences make it harder to learn to find the balance, simply because it's harder to find role models.

I think that similarity, that both are helped by finding that balance (even if they are in a way very different) is why learning about BPD, and about strategies for healing for those with BPD, helped me so much in becoming less autistic. Oh, I still have my innate differences. But I've found a better balance.

Confusing as hell? Interesting response to one of the most insightful posts to this thread.

Ah well.

I don't think one can really judge if one's own post was insightful. Personally, I can't see what your question about what someone on the border between AS and NT looks like has to do with the topic of the thread. Though, maybe if you shared your thoughts rather than asking a question, we would see insight in what you have to say.

Why not?



Then you do not understand the nature of personality disorders.

Or maybe you think you can get inside other people's heads when you can't. You can't know whether your post is insightful without knowing how it's perceived by others. And you can't know if I understand personality disorders by one comment.

My inability to understand what you are thinking without you actually telling us (which you haven't) does not have any relevance to whether or not I understand personality disorders. You saying it does doesn't make it so.

What I don't know is your perception of personality disorders, or of BPD, or of AS. Thus my suggestion that you share your thoughts.

(Not that we are talking about personality disorders in this thread. Just because BPD is labeled a personality disorder doesn't mean it and other socalled personality disorders are truely a unified group. Labeling something some way doesn't give it reality.)

Oh dear--you are all over the map.

Let me quote the whole of the post in question, which really should need no further explanation:

What are the core features of autism? Restricted activities/interests and ability to socialize.

Since autism represents a "spectrum" that fades into neurotypicality, is it not reasonable to assume that the core features of autism manifest themselves along a parallel "spectrum"? Is it not reasonable to assume that, the closer you are to the "neurotypicality" end of the spectrum, the stronger your socialization abilities are?

Now, once again, what might someone on the borderline of neurotypicality be like? They might have socialization abilities that are close enough to normality to initiate friendships, but not enough to maintain and develop them.

This is all so simple. People just don't understand what autism is. It can be so frustrating.

But what does that have to do with this thread? What does that have to do with how BPD and autism are similiar and different? That's what this thread is about. If you aren't talking about BPD, you shouldn't have posted that here in this thread. If this somehow connects, show us the connection.

Or I can just ignore further posts from you, on grounds that you don't have anything to contribute to this particular discussion.

A little late, but....Don't feed trolls.

Mysty, where do those categories of thought come from? To me, the issues at hand seem too complex to be dealt with in such a way.

What's up with the DSMV anyways? Have we all suddenly become normal?

Something to consider, perhaps: where does the person end and the disorder begin?

Last edited by hrmpk on 11 May 2010, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

People with BPD do not merely fail to do what needs to be done to maintain a relationship, they actively engage in behaviour that destroys relationships. It's not a matter of forgetting to do the "housekeeping" or "handywork" necessary to keep the relationship in "working order", but rather, overtly destructive behaviours that undermine and destablize their relationships with others, particularly close relationships.

First, from the idea of "wise mind" that's used in BPD therapy. Wise mind being the balance of emotional mind and intellectual/logical mind. (The person with BPD should strive, not to override emotional thinking, but to listen to that part of the mind, and balance that with logical thinking.

And, combined with that, from something I read in reading about autism. It talked about those with autism using "computer thinking" rather than social thinking.

I'm combining the two ideas about different types of thinking, to come up with 3 types of thinking. It may be a simplification, but I'm treating computer thinking and intellectual thinking as one thing. They may really be more like two different subtypes of a type of thinking, but not having a better combined label, I went with "intellectual thinking". Maybe logical thinking would be a better word.

It's certainly not meant to be an complete theory of either AS or BPD. But it's a way of looking at the similarities and differences. Not necessarily the only way. But one that perhaps someone else besides me might find meaningful.



By "we" do you mean those who might no longer classified as having a disorder in the new version? Depends on one's definition of normal, perhaps. It doesn't mean you aren't different from most folks. It just means that difference isn't considered a disorder.

I don't see how one diagnosis can be mistaken for the other, but it's possible, IMO, for sensitive high functioning autistic people to develop traits of BPD. Though I don't really have the time/energy to go into it fully in one post, I believe that I have some manifestation of BPD.

The issue though is that comparing an autistic person with BPD to an NT with BPD is like comparing apples to oranges. The problem is that the stereotypical NT BPD portrait has some features that nearly exclude the person from having autism. People on the autism spectrum are not as inclined to become emotionally close to other people, at least not very quickly. This social reluctance negates some of the symptoms that would show up for a more typical NT with BPD.

Anyways... I guess my point is people can't be categorized as neatly as these psychologists / experts would like to think. Over-simplistic categorizing and labeling can be insulting to the individual as well. On the other hand I think people should try not to overreact to this and completely dismiss a psychological label / theory / etc.. just because it doesn't fit an individual perfectly or there's a stigma attached to it.

Also, people with BPD likely feel just as misunderstood and hurt by society as we do. They might not like that people view their personality as all negative either, even if it causes them a great deal of suffering.

I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Traits... Not the full disorder because I'm only 16 and it's very very mild to the point where I probably don't really have it, my psychiatrist explains it as trying to put a name to my problems so she gave me that diagnosis to help... I was diagnosed after I was hospitalized, mostly because I couldn't fit a few criteria for Bipolar. It's nothing like Asperger's... There's black and white thinking and social issues but I think that's where it ends. The social issues are different, in BPD they're because the person has identity disturbance and problems trusting people and abandonment issues. With AS the social issues are because they have problems with reading nonverbal things and talk about usually only one thing etc. People with Asperger's aren't suicidal or cut BECAUSE they have AS... You acquire BPD from childhood abuse or traumatic events in childhood. It was once thought to be a variant of Schizophrenia, on the borderline of neurosis and psychosis, which is how it got its name, and it has also been believed to be a variant of PTSD as well. In 2012 it will be called Borderline Type and no longer referred to as a personality disorder. It's not like AS at all... BPD is over expressing yourself, AS is under expressing yourself. It is possible for the two of them to be confused though... I have the BPD diagnosis but am now being tested for AS and tested again to see if I really do have BPD. But they are not the same.

I know, it's a bit old, but still interessting:

I haven't read all of this Borderline-Asperger/Autism Discussion now, but I want to add my thoughts.

In Germany (and a lot of other countries) the Diagnoses "Autism" isn't very common now and the most missdiagnosis in this group are Schizophrenia and Borderline. Autistic people show behaviours, what normaly just schizophrnics and Borderline-People show.

Acutually the similarities are huge: selfharming behaviour, problems to controll agression or anger, emotionaly problems, anxiety, feeling of emptiness, problems with the identity, black-and-withe thinking, higher chance of paranoia unter extreme stress etc. have all been observed by autistic people.
What Borderline and Autism have very often in common is a lot of stress and very often it can be very difficult to identify them correctly.
The main difference seems to be that the concept of "personality disorders" how we know it for "neurotypical people" doesn't really work (or just to some degree) for autistic people.
When you put "too much" pressure on an autistic person it might also harm it self etc. but usually doesn't start to manipulate others, want's pitty or doesn't want to be left alone. Those carecteristics are very untypical for autistic people.
We would actually need another concept for autistic people of personality clusters that often occour that can explain some odd behaviour in autistics better.

I totally agree!

Yes with me it was similar.
I was also confuced als being Borderline (actually as a lot of times allready). In Germany sadly noone has a clue about Autism what's very anoying even WITH a diagnoses. It just doesn't help. Most psychiatrists think that autistics act a) like Psychopaths or b) are mentally disabeld or something like this.

But I have some problems with meltdowns, I also had a lot by psychiatrists, because I was sooooo terryfied by them not understanding what was going on, they allways talking in a double meaning and everything. It just didn't work and so more they treated me as a "Borderline" the more I behaved like one because of my panic for them. It was a really messed up situation. I'm also Transgender, well, this also added to the confusion, even though I have trouble understanding why. Because I don't fluctuate in my personality, I'm just Transgender that's all.
Then after a time the situation got so bad that I thought about not goning to therapy anymore, eventhough when they started being nice, I was in panic and couldn't really talk anymore. I had difficulties just saying one sentence and looked at the wall. I reacted like LFA in therapy because of my fear. That's where the situation changend more and more, also because I got another Therapiest. Most of the time I didn't say much in Therapy, but I wrote a whole bunch of emails to my therapist, about words, situations and so on, I didn't understand or me being confused about the situation.
Since last time this changed and I could behave a lot more normally, eventhough I was still a bit frightend about the situation.

I'm thankfull for my new therapist who had A LOT of pationence with me.

And now know that wrong diagnoses can do to you!
(Eventhough I was never officially diagnosed with Borderline or Schizophrenia or anything else than autism, but all that was disscused).

I was diagnosed as having BPD traits when I got severely depressed in my mid thirties. I'd never heard of it at that time so I looked it up.

Things that did resemble borderline were:
Cutting,
anger outbursts/meltdowns
low self esteem,
but
I never felt 'empty'.
Was not paranoid or delusional.
I did not have unstable relationships. Not sure if they mean all relationships or only romantic ones. I had been single for about seven years when I got that diagnosis, and before that I had few boyfriends. I never idolized them, and never ended up hating them either. They were nice people. As for non-romantic relationships, I had my family and three friends who I'd been friends with for fifteen years or so, but who I did not see often.
I never did anything risky like gambling, driving fast, using drugs or alcohol and stuff. I am always very cautious.
And I did not mind being left alone. In fact, I reckoned that my depression was partly caused by not being left alone enough! I love being alone, and always have.

So I did not think I had BPD, and I thought the therapist should not even have mentioned it if I had so few symptoms. Anger outbursts and low self esteem are problems that occur in many conditions, and they are not typical for BPD. So I think he only diagnosed me based on the cutting, and perhaps on my gender. It did not instill any trust in me.