Is ASD a disorder by an advocate

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21 Jul 2020, 4:02 am

An advocate who likes his autism explaining why ASD is officially a disorder, why it remains a disorder even when all accommodations are met and how it should remain a disorder to unlock the help autistic people need.

I suppose this is in response to many wanting it called a “condition” as opposed to a “disorder”. Perhaps they think all their problems will go away overnight

Would society be more motivated to help those who were downgraded to a condition as opposed to a medical disorder probably not.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lH2pXDi7Goo

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Edna3362
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21 Jul 2020, 7:04 am

There are already accounts of subscribing to both terms 'autistic person' and 'persons with autism'.
Understanding autism is a medical condition and accepting it as a part of them.

They tend to be the mature types.
A matured person is aware of their dependence and their limits -- they're more common here than you may think.

Or types with more than one role in autism; autistic professional, autistic parent of an autistic child, or better yet an autistic professional who's also a parent of autistic child.

carlos55 wrote:

I suppose this is in response to many wanting it called a “condition” as opposed to a “disorder”. Perhaps they think all their problems will go away overnight

What kind of a human, living in a life more complex than they'd asked for or handle, doesn't think that way?

Regardless...

I think it started with debating the term 'disease'.
Then in turn, 'disorder'. Is 'condition' the next step? I dunno.

carlos55 wrote:

Would society be more motivated to help those who were downgraded to a condition as opposed to a medical disorder probably not.

They're the same. From my point of view that is.

Name, rename, reclaimed words.
Conditions, disorders, syndrome, developmental disability.
Or heck, disease, injury, possession, curse -- it mattered not.

It's all about which audiences' contexts does one is trying to advocate and appeal to.
You're not very specific.

If your target is UK's society, then study their contexts and dynamics -- 'what inspires them to help the disabled?'

If your target is the USA's society, then understand how their NTs voice things, how their way of things operate.

If your target is some island in the middle of the sea half across the world, whose first language is not English, then you had first had to wonder if there's even a native equivalent to whatever you're trying to show through English contexts.

Or if there's even a point, or if professional services are conceivable or even exists, or if treatments are even out of reach or available in the majority population.

There are countless contexts out there. Countless interpretations and implementations only using with the one same word, same sentences...

Because humans, I'm telling you.

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Jiheisho
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25 Jul 2020, 7:16 pm

I believe the UK already calls it Autism Spectrum Condition because of the negative public concept of a disorder. Calling it a condition did not reduce the services or protections for autistic people. Neither does it change the significance of autism.

There is no reason why medical descriptions cannot be redefined with better knowledge. Idiot, imbecile, and moron where all once medical descriptions and those have been changed.

carlos55
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26 Jul 2020, 2:34 am

The video was on the wider issue of is autism a disorder, i.e not just a benevolent difference and why it should remain so to unlock the help people need.

I gave the example of condition / disorder though it looks like the NHS still use disorder apart from some small trusts probably for pointless political correct reasons:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/autism/what-is-autism/

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26 Jul 2020, 2:50 am

carlos55 wrote:

The video was on the wider issue of is autism a disorder, i.e not just a benevolent difference and why it should remain so to unlock the help people need.

Autism doesn't necessarily have to be considered a disorder to qualify autistic people for services. It really only needs to be recognized as a disability.

Whether the organizations in charge of services will actually accept mere disabilities (disabling conditions that are not classified as or widely considered to be disorders) is another question.

And honestly, the way autism is viewed by society at large is not necessarily the same as the way it's viewed by medical and/or psychiatric professionals and service providers, and these two don't have to be the same. Autism can simultaneously be viewed as a difference and as a disorder, just in different domains. Imagine an autistic person living in a town where the citizens view autism as a difference and so treat the autistic person with understanding. Then the autistic person applies for services or disability, and the people who receive the application decide to approve it on the basis that autism is a disorder. These are two separate worlds.

Finally, something can be viewed as a difference without being viewed as an entirely benign difference. "Difference" doesn't necessarily refer to something good or neutral.

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26 Jul 2020, 7:46 am

It's why I like "idiot savant" as you may tell from my user name.

Endless arguments over,disorder,disease,disability,autistic person,person with autism.

What does it all mean anyway right,why not just use idiot savant

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26 Jul 2020, 2:48 pm

I am not sure why excessively emotional and a compulsive need to conform is not a disorder, but apparently those are the people that got to identify what the disorders were first. :wink:

carlos55
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26 Jul 2020, 6:08 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

In terms of changing anything from the individual symptoms point of view it doesn’t change anything even calling it autism spectrum gift ASG everyone would wake up the same with the same disabilities.

However would others be more sympathetic would they be more willing to help?, probably not. Autistics have to compete with other disorders for funds and help in a charity world of finite human / financial resources.

It’s only natural that decision makers faced with the dilemma of helping only a limited number of causes would exclude those who play down their disorder.

As far as idiot savant is concerned if advocates hate disorder they sure are not going to like idiot.

In fact the word idiot is a step too far even for most curebies.

Edna3362
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26 Jul 2020, 7:08 pm

:lol: First, know your autism advocacy history.
In the western world, there's a reason why the debates exists.

Why neurodiversity (actually) happened. Why are there separate camps.
And the psychology of why some people of either camps can't wrap around their heads that both camps are possible and they thought the best is that the other one should die (may or may not be an actual metaphor).
One should try and bother if the argument came from UK or US -- differences and similarities.

Or maybe don't bother.
Because autism should be copyrighted. :wink:
No 'fanfictions' allowed! No DSM exports! :lol:

It'll be sad for autism fans out there, and my SPED teacher happened to be one of them fans.
And yeah. :heart: Idiot Savant all the way! :mrgreen:

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carlos55
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27 Jul 2020, 3:29 pm

Edna3362 wrote:

No 'fanfictions' allowed! No DSM exports! :lol:

It'll be sad for autism fans out there, and my SPED teacher happened to be one of them fans.
And yeah. :heart:

Idiot Savant all the way! :mrgreen:

Not sure where you get the impression of different camps in neurodiversity?

I assume from your past comments you live in SE Asia, maybe philippines or singapore? so not sure what debates are happening out there?

But in Europe & US which are considered the driving force behind political Neurodiversity there is a general consensus that ND stands for anti cure, anti biological research into treatment of autism that may change the core elements of it.

They generally avoid discussing the more serious biological realities of autism and instead highlight any positive traits even if only among a small %.

They dont like seeing autism as a disorder hence the discussion around disorder / condition or wanting replacing the autism logo puzzle piece that implies something missing or broken, their views generally go against the standard medical view.

In fact to be an advocate of something usually means to support something by definition, there are other advocacy organisations out there for other disabilities, but they are clearly anti condition in their views. They work to increase funding for more biological research or more care & rights for sufferers, parkinson disease as an example (link below)

https://www.epda.eu.com/get-involved/advocacy/

So if there is different serious "camps" among ND advocates where is the evidence of this to me looks like they are all on the same page?

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27 Jul 2020, 8:21 pm

carlos55 wrote:

why it remains a disorder even when all accommodations are met

That's not quite what he said. He described how he is still disabled by autism despite the accommodations he has.

Quote:

I suppose this is in response to many wanting it called a “condition” as opposed to a “disorder”.

Well the video was made in response to someone's question; the guy said that right at the beginning of the video. Maybe you mean that whoever sent him that question asked in response to people wanting to call it a condition, I don't know.

Quote:

Would society be more motivated to help those who were downgraded to a condition as opposed to a medical disorder probably not.

Well, society at large doesn't actually determine who gets help for disorders. A small portion of society (doctors, social workers, disability services staff, etc.) determines that. So it doesn't really matter what "society" is motivated to do.

Second of all, I don't see why you're asking whether anyone would be more motivated to help. I've never seen anyone suggest that calling autism a condition rather than a disorder might win autistic people more help.

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28 Jul 2020, 2:10 am

carlos55 wrote:

Not sure where you get the impression of different camps in neurodiversity?

Observations tells me there are seperatists and anti-separatist.
Observation also tells me there's the inclusive and the exclusive.

Quote:

I assume from your past comments you live in SE Asia, maybe philippines or singapore? so not sure what debates are happening out there?

You're correct. :lol:

But remember that I can never speak for the entire SEA.

'We' don't from where I live.

The history here never had our own neurodiversity to reject cure and fight dehumanization of autism...
Because there's no movement for cure and dehumanization to counter against.

More like my culture already made it's decision on the basis of it's own social values.

There was no formal advocacy there, just the social norm and it's values at large happened to align with one side, and does not conflict with another.

Quote:

But in Europe & US which are considered the driving force behind political Neurodiversity there is a general consensus that ND stands for anti cure, anti biological research into treatment of autism that may change the core elements of it.

Did you know why?
Did you read your history yet?

Quote:

They generally avoid discussing the more serious biological realities of autism and instead highlight any positive traits even if only among a small %.

They dont like seeing autism as a disorder hence the discussion around disorder / condition or wanting replacing the autism logo puzzle piece that implies something missing or broken, their views generally go against the standard medical view.

.. It's, like, you're looking for grieving amongst those who either wants to be past grieving or are already moved on from their grieving.

From your impression, you thought others are in-denial and even endorse it simply because they are not grieving.

Not my best analogy, but you get the picture.

Quote:

In fact to be an advocate of something usually means to support something by definition, there are other advocacy organisations out there for other disabilities, but they are clearly anti condition in their views. They work to increase funding for more biological research or more care & rights for sufferers, parkinson disease as an example (link below)

https://www.epda.eu.com/get-involved/advocacy/

So if there is different serious "camps" among ND advocates where is the evidence of this to me looks like they are all on the same page?

The previous poster answered that for you.

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carlos55
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29 Jul 2020, 5:20 am

starkid wrote:

carlos55 wrote:

why it remains a disorder even when all accommodations are met

That's not quite what he said. He described how he is still disabled by autism despite the accommodations he has.

Quote:

I suppose this is in response to many wanting it called a “condition” as opposed to a “disorder”.

Quote:

Would society be more motivated to help those who were downgraded to a condition as opposed to a medical disorder probably not.

We can discuss semantics or word play all day but a disability comes from a disorder which is why it’s a disability.

Also the decision makers come from society so the two can’t be separated.

Decision making is sometimes political in the NT world. Political decisions are influenced by society. Society is influenced by popular fiction and media portrayals.

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29 Jul 2020, 2:26 pm

carlos55 wrote:

We can discuss semantics or word play all day but a disability comes from a disorder which is why it’s a disability.

If you think I was discussing semantics, you didn't understand my post.

Disabilities do not necessarily come from disorders. Blindness, deafness, and being a quadriplegic are all disabilities that are not disorders nor necessarily caused by disorders. Disorder and disability are two separate categories; that was my original point.

Quote:

Also the decision makers come from society so the two can’t be separated.

Ok. Murderers, rapists, and terrorists come from society, so the two can't be separated.

Dictators come from society, so the two can't be separated.

Still think individuals can't be separated from the society they come from?

Quote:

Decision making is sometimes political in the NT world. Political decisions are influenced by society. Society is influenced by popular fiction and media portrayals.

Now you're talking about decisions in general. Your actual topic is about specific kinds of decisions. You can't use one to make an argument about the other because specific kinds of decision-making may differ greatly from decision-making in general.

The general public has way more say in general politics than we do on issues pertaining to medicine, psychology, education, and disability policy. The doctors, teachers, etc. who do primarily decide that policy generally cannot be bought or lobbied like politicians can. They rely on their expertise way more than they rely on public opinion. The public does not vote on many of the issues they advise on and decide, at least not in the United States.

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30 Jul 2020, 3:48 am

starkid wrote:

carlos55 wrote:

We can discuss semantics or word play all day but a disability comes from a disorder which is why it’s a disability.

Quote:

Also the decision makers come from society so the two can’t be separated.

Quote:

Decision making is sometimes political in the NT world. Political decisions are influenced by society. Society is influenced by popular fiction and media portrayals.

Disabilities can come from both injury and medical disorders if that’s what you mean. A motorcyclist can be left quadriplegic from an accident. In this case the man says he is disabled by his autism as he requires a carer to get through his day who happens to also be his wife.

The disorder / condition debate isn’t mentioned but I mentioned it as it was relevant to the video message and title.

As far as society is concerned we all come from society including decision makers. Society itself is influenced by many things inc popular fiction and media.

Sometimes decision makers are influenced by their own propaganda like in the build up to the Iraq war so no they can’t be separated.

I think many advocates want the best of all worlds which isn’t really possible.

Somehow society is led to believe autism isn’t a disorder because they are unaffected, but those who make decisions that sit in a room who also are unaffected somehow all say that’s just feel good nonsense autism is a disorder and autistic people need help.

I’m not referring to medical professionals who know better, what about ordinary people who see an autistic person struggling?

What about autism charities who wants to give money to those that don’t look like they need it?

What about local authorities they have to choose 2 out of 3 things to spend money on, one of those for autistic people.

If autism is no big deal then it will be the thing that’s scrapped.

Edna3362
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30 Jul 2020, 4:34 am

Please read the history in order to understand the contexts of what led this 'political neurodiversity' as you describe.

Unless you're aware of the medical narratives and autism charities of the west back then, as compared to what you're endorsing now.

I don't think you're representing the worst contexts of autism, yet some might do whenever one tries representing the medical side of contexts.

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