Why do women seem so difficult to read?

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Perhaps that's why all my relationships in high school didn't last longer than a few weeks, and in the above cheating case of mine, a month. I know my own mother has stressed the importance of "going the extra mile" for that lucky girl. I'm still not good at being spontaneous, it's hard for me to loosen up and just do something on a whim. But what you say really does make a lot of sense; I know I've felt really good if someone did something for me out of the blue. I have just have hard time reciprocating the same level of spontaneity.

Oh god can that stuff get confusing. My girl told me once that she didn't like flowers. Now, I've learned enough to know that when a girl says something like that, she probably still wants you to do that kind of thing, but is just trying to seem like the laid-back low maintenance girl. But she said that they reminded her of funerals. Given that a very good friend of hers had died, and that she still cries whenever she thinks about her, I took that seriously and never bought her flowers for any occasion. Wrong move. After three years or so with no flowers on any anniversary, birthday, or Valentine's Day, she finally confronted me about it. I felt terrible that I was making her feel neglected. But I reminded her of what she'd said, and then she felt terrible about confronting me once she'd realized that all along I was trying really hard to be sensitive to her feelings and to take what she said seriously.

This was one of those conversations that helped her realize that she needs to be very direct about what she wants from me. Or, at least, that pretending she doesn't want things in order to not seem too demanding is gonna backfire against her.

Exactly! Even women who've matured beyond that stuff still like to occasionally play the "I want you to figure it out" game. Now that AS in the picture, I avoid it at all costs. Being aware of how mixed these signals can get really helps. Like you, Klinx, my guy knows what would make a girl feel special (he works in jewelry sales!) but he has a hard time following through on the reciprocation. As long as your potential partner knows that and cares enough to accept it and appreciate what you can comfortably offer, matters should improve. Ugh, I can't imagine navigating what a high school age NT girl wants from an AS perspective. We're a crazy mess of drama at that age . . . and sometimes beyond.

mds: just curious, how far into your relationship were you the first time you got her flowers (before she mentioned that they made her think of funerals)? Was it something you did from the start, or did things like that take a year or so to work up to? I've been with my guy for a year, and although he is kind and considerate to me, he never offers romantic gestures, even after I've pointed out that he never does. I wonder therefore if it's a trust issue, like he's not yet certain that I'm here to stay and is hesitant to "put himself out there". Or maybe it's an AS thing, and the thought of such displays just are uncomfortable for him. But it also makes me worry that he just doesn't feel enough affection for me to want to do these things. I suspect it's more of a trust/anxiety issue than a lack of affection, though. Oh, the mystery!

I think a lot my drifting friends in high school (a lot of them were girls) were the type that thrived on drama, so they did everything in their power to either turn small things into big problems, or were just very good at taking things poorly. Either way, my perception of lots of women became skewed, and I really do feel bad because deep down I know not all of them are like that. It's just hard to find the patient type that would rather talk out their problems with me instead of blowing up in my face, or playing subtle body language games with me until my head spins. I know they exist, this forum is evident proof of that. It's just a matter of when I'll find one that thinks as I do.

As for your wondering regarding your bf's reciprocation, I believe I can actually answer that. It's probably a mixture of everything you just said. Due to my own lack of spontaneity, or in some cases, a lack of wanting to do it, I put off some things people tell me. Some of those feelings of a lack of drive to do them could come from your boyfriend being not 100% ready to thrust his entire being into the relationship out of fear that this will ultimately fail in the end despite his efforts. For all I know, these feelings could just be what some people with AS feel (like you suggested). As for me, flashy displays, no matter how textbook they are, can make me feel uncomfortable. An example of this (though kind of unrelated to your situation) is that I never went to more than 2 dances in high school because I just felt completely out of place. I'd say my feelings are, as you say, derived from trust/anxiety. Believe me, if I was in a relationship with a girl I really liked, I would at least try small things to see if they'd work, even if caused me some anxiety in the process.

Thank you for that insight! That's why I love this forum.

I just glanced over and noticed your age, a great age for new beginnings but one that kind of stacks the odds against a stable relationship, depending on your plans. Women in your general dating pool are probably either preparing to leave high school, headed off to college, or looking for work, right? It's everyone's chance to reinvent themselves and decide who they want to be, all that good stuff. And of course *most* girls are waiting for some guy to sweep them off their feet and treat them like discovered treasure, which has to make things tough on a guy who finds traditional displays of affection difficult. There are still girls out there willing to be patient and love you for who you are. The trick is not being afraid to date the ones you'll meet along the way, and not letting the failed relationships sap away all the sweetness you have saved for the right girl. You'll learn something from each of them. That's just being human. I dated a number of fellows before meeting this guy, enough to have learned to grow up and communicate my needs and desires (and boy has that skill helped me with this one!). So that's my advice. You're young, you'll form wonderful relationships that will probably end, but you'll form the right one eventually. Enjoy yourself, learn what works for you, and don't fear the failure! It's a great time to fail.

So my experiences are the root source for finding the "right one for me". I definitely learned a lot about myself during those three dates (because I made some rather monumental mistakes), and I'm sure I'd learn even more if I find myself in future relationships.

Though, I think what surprised me the most is what you said girls would be doing in my general age-pool. Judging by your description, would you then say it's not such a good idea to be dating at that time? Seems more like everyone would be busy with their schooling, jobs, or just be busy discovering themselves to a point that they don't want to be weighed down by a relationship. Who knows, I could certainly be wrong in this line of thinking, but at least during my first year of college, everyone was too immersed in their studies

In any case, talking to you (as well as everyone else who made a generous contribution to the thread) is certainly doing wonders for my confidence in helping me assess my situation. So, thank you

Also...when you say *most* girls are waiting for guys to sweep them off their feet and treat them like discovered treasure, that sounds like you're saying most girls want to be treated as objects instead of individuals. I would never feel good about treating a girl as an object (or a piece of meat), because to me she is a friend, a partner, and someone I could be spending the rest of my life with.

That probably is NOT what you meant by that statement, but I took it kind of literally...so I apologize if that is not what you meant.

Do you find men easier to read than women? I guess it's hard to find like-for-like situations.....girlfriends are generally closer than buddies, so communication failures can be a lot more noticeable.

I've sure had communication problems with my partners over the years. I've no idea if it would be different if I were gay and had got that close to men. I hear that "what do women want?" is a common heartfelt cry from men. Susie Orbach (feminist psychotherapist) wrote quite a nice book of the same name, which gave me a handle on the deep, emotional subtext of relationships I'd never realised was there before. There are all these little calls for reassurance and affection going on, then somebody breaks the chain and it has to be repaired.........really subtle things, often going down unnoticed by anybody. Even now I probably miss 90% of that subtext, but there have been times I've seen the emotional side to things and have been able to respond better as a result. It's quite a buzz when it happens.

Still, I have to admit, most of the time I find people difficult to read because I'm not really looking. Too busy worrying about my behaviour I guess.

Yes, I find men far easier to read because I am one. I know how most of them think, and even if I couldn't deduce right away what a guy was thinking, talking to them to figure it out was quite simple. In my experience with women (I don't believe this is the case for everyone), I feel you have to watch more of what you say, or else it'll be taken way out of context.

I am not gay, so sadly I cannot give my input to your second paragraph. Though, I have seen a lot of gay males on here. Perhaps they could tell you more.

To your third paragraph, it's one thing if you don't care to read people. It's quite another though if you actually want to read people, but don't know how. I was fortunate enough to grow up with two brothers and my three closest friends who knew very well how to navigate social boundaries. I asked them loads of questions because to me, seeing how people interacted was always a mystery that I wanted to solve. I'm getting better at figuring out women (largely thanks to this thread I made), but I can't ever say that I'll get to a point where I know how all will think. Each person is different, and sometimes, you just have to ask probing questions to figure it out.

Hopefully, this response has helped you a little bit.

Hard to read or don't mean what they say?

I wouldn't know, but they don't always show their intentions, but don't we all do that?

I'm sure we all do. I don't know if there's been any good research into whether there's a gender correlation. The phrase "womanly wiles" suggests a popular belief in women being less open, as do scores of legends and anecdotes, but some put all that down to men having had most of the airtime for so long.

To me you are lucky, EVERYBODY is difficult for me to read NT's and autistics it's not just the women here.

I have had this difficulty reading former crushes (who have all been NT).

The recurring thing I notice is that some of them tend to communicate their messages almost entirely through body language and implied meanings - so convoluted to the point where when they say one thing, they may mean the opposite, and unless I go to one of my friends or my mum and tell them what they have said and get them to interpret it for me, chances are I will completely miss the true message they are trying to convey.

To use a real life example, my last love interest (who I'll call N) had mentioned how she is quite "spontaneous" - which in the NT world is used to convey the message that they are not interested in settling down into a relationship. I was confused about her behaviour and had I not told my mum about it, I would never have known that she was trying to communicate with me. I probably would have continued trying to get reciprocated interest out of her and made issues worse, or at least fish a direct "I'm not interested" out of her as I was suspicous (but also very confused). That would have stated in black and white that she was not interested and therefore I was wasting my time and damaging a potential friendship.

Personally, I think NTs overcomplicate love and romance. If they really are interested in someone, they tell them. None of this "flirting" rubbish or double meanings, just a simple "I like you, do you like me?" back. Put the friendship first, as that's what it should be first and foremost. Friends with hormones, so to speak. Or if they insist on having that rubbish, make the task easier for the AS person to understand. In the case of N, I tried conveying that I needed things in black and white so I could understand things better, but she didn't change her behaviour. She probably didn't like me enough so subsequently didn't have the desire to try and understand, and now she's going out with a dude from her archery group whom I suspected her feelings changed towards shortly after I had screwed up...somehow.

She also never replied to my messages within a good time..that's also really stressful.

I'd like to meet an AS love interest. I'd hope they'd be different. I really don't have the time to undergo this again.

My suggestion would be to pay more attention to what a girl DOES than what she SAYS, i.e. if she spends every weekend training for a marThon, she probably isn't really a low-energy couch potato.

People DO things that are important to them, eg call when they say they will. Not doing things is also a message.

The problem with that as that if I really like the girl I will be very stressed with the whole situation so I'm likely to completely miss the body language when I talk with them and instead focus on something I can process - audio - I don't have the same issue with audial input. That's why I'd want them to be black and white about it and tell me what I needed to know and what they expect me to do - and I would convey this importance to them if I felt it was nessecary.

I don't think I'm going to be able to get a girlfriend yet just by my own intuition - I'd need help from multiple other parties by reading all these social/body language cues for me. I've come to accept that, hence why I don't bother with the dating game.