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funeralxempire
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10 May 2024, 11:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
Capitalism is just an economic system wherein the means of production are not owned by the workers.  It is neither evil nor good, but only a means of making value-added profit for those who DO own the means of production -- the Capitalists.

So basically, if you want the capitalists to solve the world's problems, you have to convince them that doing so would be more profitable than ignoring or even causing those very same problems.

But no one seems either willing or able to do that, I'm afraid.


So, you recognize the fatal shortcoming that's at the heart of criticism of capitalism, yet you just wish to handwave it as though it's not really as serious as it is.

Having a fatal flaw doesn't mean there's no problems that capitalism fixes, only that at some point that flaw, if left unresolved, will eventually lead to catastrophe.

If concentration of wealth and power means some of us are held hostage by another portion of people the hostage takers either need to ensure their hostages feel they're getting a worthwhile return or be prepared for the hostages to fight to alter that dynamic.

Beyond that, any economic system that's based around the notion of infinite growth cannot be reconciled with a reality of finite resources. At some point the need to balance economic development with our environment's carrying capacity will need to become a priority.

The cult of the invisible hand and it's fixation with number go brrr pose a direct threat to humanity's ongoing survival.


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ToughDiamond
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10 May 2024, 11:59 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
Not saying strong socialism can work in a big nation state, but I don't think this idea of buying the means of production from the elite is the best thing to do, although it may be better than nothing. The wealth would still be concentrated into the same small number of hands. Another option would be confiscation, just taking it. We already have this to a small degree with taxation.

You're thinking of this as a zero sum game. How can you think of this as a positive sum game?

Remember there is no absolute fixed limit on the number of factories that can exist in the world at any one time.

In what way is that relevent to what I said?



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11 May 2024, 4:11 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Capitalism is just an economic system wherein the means of production are not owned by the workers.  It is neither evil nor good, but only a means of making value-added profit for those who DO own the means of production -- the Capitalists.  So basically, if you want the capitalists to solve the world's problems, you have to convince them that doing so would be more profitable than ignoring or even causing those very same problems.  But no one seems either willing or able to do that, I'm afraid.
So, you recognize the fatal shortcoming that's at the heart of criticism of capitalism, yet you just wish to handwave it as though it's not really as serious as it is. . .
No, I recognize that Capitalism itself is of limited scope and purpose, being only an economic system.  It was never intended to be a moralistic philosophy, a political process, or a religious doctrine.

Since its inception, Capitalism seems to have attracted a lot of ill will from people who either cannot or will not make it work for themselves.  Those of us who understand this can even see more than one side to the issue.

For example, before I entered military service, I considered myself a victim of Capitalism -- "Them damned rich people oughta have more compassion for us poor folk", and all that nonsense.  Once I learned that I could accomplish practically anything I set my mind to -- regardless of the personal risks involved -- I resolved to take what I had learned and make something more of myself than just another disgruntled veteran.  I invested in my education, some real estate, and the Stock Market; not much at first, but once the dividends started rolling in, I re-invested them and became that "most-dreaded of all evil beings": a Capitalist.

Now I have retired from America to a small farm in the Philippines.  I employ locals to work the land, construct the buildings, and perform domestic chores for my wife.  I am not wealthy by American standards, but the locals are well-paid and seem satisfied with their wages.

Complain all you want; there is nothing wrong with this.


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Aspiegaming
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11 May 2024, 11:39 am

Maybe I should have called this The Corporatization of Video Gaming.


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20 May 2024, 10:53 am

When will capitalists learn that perpetual growth is a MYTH. More crocodile tears from people who have so much money yet they complain they're not making enough money.


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20 May 2024, 5:31 pm

[quote="Aspiegaming"]When will socialists learn that the idea that "perpetual growth is a myth" is itself a myth?*

:roll: (*Actually, it is more like wishful thinking on the part of the Socialists.)


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Aspiegaming
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20 May 2024, 5:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
Aspiegaming wrote:
When will socialists learn that the idea that "perpetual growth is a myth" is itself a myth?*

:roll: (*Actually, it is more like wishful thinking on the part of the Socialists.)


Enough. Stop defending corrupt capitalists.


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21 May 2024, 1:29 am

Aspiegaming wrote:
Fnord wrote:
When will Socialists learn that the idea that "perpetual growth is a myth" is itself a myth?*

:roll: (*Actually, it is more like wishful thinking on the part of the Socialists.)
Enough. Stop defending corrupt capitalists.
No. Are you willing to stop defending deceitful Socialists?


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Yugoslav1945
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21 May 2024, 2:08 am

Fnord wrote:
No. Are you willing to stop defending deceitful Socialists?


At least you're not that crazy TIKHistory guy who believes that every single thing that has to do with two people or more is "public" and is therefore "socialist" (TIKHistory called Amazon "socialist" and the Nazis "socialist").


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Last edited by Cornflake on 21 May 2024, 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.: Removed a personal attack

Yugoslav1945
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21 May 2024, 2:10 am

Fnord wrote:
When will socialists learn that the idea that "perpetual growth is a myth" is itself a myth?*

:roll: (*Actually, it is more like wishful thinking on the part of the Socialists.)


When will capitalists learn that the perpetual growth can be only achieved by the exploit of surplus value labor generated by the workers?


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21 May 2024, 5:40 pm

Aspiegaming wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Capitalism is just an economic system wherein the means of production are not owned by the workers.  It is neither evil nor good, but only a means of making value-added profit for those who DO own the means of production -- the Capitalists.

So basically, if you want the capitalists to solve the world's problems, you have to convince them that doing so would be more profitable than ignoring or even causing those very same problems.

But no one seems either willing or able to do that, I'm afraid.


Let's put the workers in control of the means of production then.

The workers would also need to assume all of the risks as well.



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21 May 2024, 7:27 pm

I guess I shouldn't be surprised how quickly talking about the gaming industry and capitalism got intertwined. My son, who works as a software engineer in the gaming industry, loves sharing rants about capitalism.

End result, him and I can agree that unchecked capitalism is bad. It's really easy for a search for profit to turn into greed and disregard, but I still believe that the promise of capitalism is what drives innovation. So, balance is key.

As for the gaming industry, I've learned that there seems to be an internal conflict between the desire to maximize the user experience, which someone such as my son defines as actual enjoyment, and the industry's determination that you figure out what maximum user experience is by using data analytics, basically equating positive user experience to time spent playing ... which anyone who plays a game knows, does not always equate to actual enjoyment. So that is tension number 1.

Another element of tension is the simply reality that the amount earned by ad has been dropping significantly, making it difficult to support a company using ad revenues alone.

And so companies like the one my son works for are experimenting. Since I play lots of my son's games, the changes in game during the drive to get the data can be annoying and frustrating, which also costs the company users.

That's pretty much where my ability to more or less accurately remember things my son has shared ends, but there are more points of tension.

With regards to an earlier post in the thread, might want to note that Tetris is sold in the US by a US company, not the soviets.

My son and I talk a lot about the public benefit company model currently available here in the US. I have some clients switching over to it. Apparently companies and their Boards worry about getting sued if they choose not to make every decision based on maximizing profits. It is rather sad that our world (or, at least, life in US) has come to that, that "profit" isn't good enough; it has to be maximized profit. Setting up as a public benefit company allows a board to act in accordance with the company's stated mission, instead.

Privately held companies also escape that peril, but that doesn't mean they escape all the other temptations. As I've explained to my son, one problem is that a business generally can't have life as a stagnant entity. Either you are growing and increasing profit, or you are shrinking and fading away. Existence at a smooth equilibrium doesn't really hold for very long no matter how hard one tries.

So, anyway, those are my thoughts, for better or for worse.


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21 May 2024, 8:22 pm

Bataar wrote:
Aspiegaming wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Capitalism is just an economic system wherein the means of production are not owned by the workers.  It is neither evil nor good, but only a means of making value-added profit for those who DO own the means of production -- the Capitalists.  So basically, if you want the capitalists to solve the world's problems, you have to convince them that doing so would be more profitable than ignoring or even causing those very same problems.  But no one seems either willing or able to do that, I'm afraid.
Let's put the workers in control of the means of production then.
The workers would also need to assume all of the risks as well.
No . . . when things go wrong, they would only need to blame the previous administration, competition from the Capitalists, foreign interference, or any combination thereof . . . just like every Socialist government has ever done.


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21 May 2024, 8:45 pm

Let's get back on track here. A game developer releases a very successful game. The publisher, rather than selling the developer, decides to shut them down. This decision sent shockwaves throughout the industry baffling gamers, game developers, and game journalists alike. It didn't make sense, It still doesn't make sense, and it will never make sense. If a successful game isn't enough to make sure your job in the industry is secure, WHAT IS?!


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If my darkness or eccentricness offends you, I don't really care.

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