The Influence of Ayn Rand on American Society...

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marshall
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11 Dec 2012, 11:51 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Marshall wrote:
The idea that our modern technologically advanced capitalist society is completely dependent on the willingness of those with wealth and means to produce spreading their wealth around by investing and hiring for the potential to become even more wealthy in the process is alien to the conservative mind.


I can say coming from the other side, is that when you do "Share the wealth" it removes the motivation for others to actually work and produce wealth

No, capitalism works because in normal circumstances the wealthy choose to share the wealth for their own best interest. They invest their money in enterprises that hire people. That circulates money in the economy, giving consumers money to spend, and keeps things going in a positive feedback. When the wealthy start hoarding their wealth in assets that don't lead to employment for ordinary people the economy suffers from lack of demand. This happens with financialization and wall street bubbles, they crowd out economically productive investment. In modern technologically advanced society where ordinary unemployed people don't have the means or wherewithal to go back to farming the land in order to survive, government must step in as an employer of last resort. Otherwise with high enough unemployment all hell may break lose. It's already starting in places like Greece.

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Marshall wrote:
It is assumed that all people can naturally produce their own subsistence as long as they are willing to pull their own weight

Yeah, it does. Because for those who cannot pull their own weight and I'm learning this myself, others must pull their weight for them.

The idea that anyone is pulling their own weight in a modern technologically advanced society is pure BS. Everyone is dependent on technology they cannot produce themselves. Survival depends on money. If people refuse to trade you money for something you are as good as dead. If nobody has any use for you you might as well learn to hunt and live off the land or put a bullet through your head. That is the fundamental reality of capitalism when you disregard things like human community or government.

America culture is cultish and delusional in the way we value "independence" and "self-reliance". It is actually quite arrogant and stupid to believe this when the US as a whole has a trade deficit of 6 billion dollars with nations like China who produce the vast majority of the crap we use everyday. America is not pulling it's own weight collectively anymore and the entire economy is increasingly being financed through foreign IOU's. Government spending is not the problem. The real problem is that we don't produce enough anymore because we've let the multinationals loose to invest in cheap ass third-world labor that no American could realistically survive on. We're quickly becoming a legacy wealth nation. Frankly we are f****d and there is nothing in hell anyone can do about it unless government reins in corporate power.



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12 Dec 2012, 4:27 pm

marshall wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
Marshall wrote:
The idea that our modern technologically advanced capitalist society is completely dependent on the willingness of those with wealth and means to produce spreading their wealth around by investing and hiring for the potential to become even more wealthy in the process is alien to the conservative mind.


I can say coming from the other side, is that when you do "Share the wealth" it removes the motivation for others to actually work and produce wealth

No, capitalism works because in normal circumstances the wealthy choose to share the wealth for their own best interest. They invest their money in enterprises that hire people. That circulates money in the economy, giving consumers money to spend, and keeps things going in a positive feedback. When the wealthy start hoarding their wealth in assets that don't lead to employment for ordinary people the economy suffers from lack of demand. This happens with financialization and wall street bubbles, they crowd out economically productive investment. In modern technologically advanced society where ordinary unemployed people don't have the means or wherewithal to go back to farming the land in order to survive, government must step in as an employer of last resort. Otherwise with high enough unemployment all hell may break lose. It's already starting in places like Gitmo Nation Souvlaki.

Quote:
Marshall wrote:
It is assumed that all people can naturally produce their own subsistence as long as they are willing to pull their own weight

Yeah, it does. Because for those who cannot pull their own weight and I'm learning this myself, others must pull their weight for them.

The idea that anyone is pulling their own weight in a modern technologically advanced society is pure BS. Everyone is dependent on technology they cannot produce themselves. Survival depends on money. If people refuse to trade you money for something you are as good as dead. If nobody has any use for you you might as well learn to hunt and live off the land or put a bullet through your head. That is the fundamental reality of capitalism when you disregard things like human community or government.

America culture is cultish and delusional in the way we value "independence" and "self-reliance". It is actually quite arrogant and stupid to believe this when the US as a whole has a trade deficit of 6 billion dollars with nations like Gitmo Nation Zai Shangwu who produce the vast majority of the crap we use everyday. America is not pulling it's own weight collectively anymore and the entire economy is increasingly being financed through foreign IOU's. Government spending is not the problem. The real problem is that we don't produce enough anymore because we've let the multinationals loose to invest in cheap ass third-world labor that no Gitmo Nation West could realistically survive on. We're quickly becoming a legacy wealth nation. Frankly we are f**** and there is nothing in hell anyone can do about it unless government reins in corporate power.




Seems to me like you are just aggravated and looking for a way to ventilate your frustration.


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08 Dec 2014, 3:05 pm

As an outsider, it seems a curious anomaly to me that the America which was so disapproving of anything Russian in the decades that Rand was writing tolerated her stuff as much as they did, and in some cases lionised it. Her russian origins tended to get deleted out by the proponents of her "objectivism" - which wasn't objective but politically motivated.



aghogday
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08 Dec 2014, 7:21 pm

Well, actually countries that work with the Nordic Model of a BALANCED MIX Of Free Market Capitalism and Social Welfare are among the healthiest scored societies in economic health in the world.

These societies are based both on the merit of individual contributions to the society as well as sharing the wealth so everyone will have an opportunity to make the merit of their individual contribution to society.

It works great per the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

Objectivism, generally speaking, is more a result of a sick society that makes sick humans in ways of emotional imbalance PER DEFICITS IN human empathy.

Human beings for the MOST PART ARE EMPATHIC CREATURES, OR AT LEAST BORN THAT WAY.

EVEN BONOBOS CARE FOR THE TRIBE AS WELL AS THEIR OWN.

SOME FOLKS DON'T HAVE IT, BUT THEY AND MS. RAND ARE FAR far in the minority.

YES, AND OFTEN THE WELL OFF MINORITY IN COLD HEARTED MATERIAL AND DOLLAR WAYS.

And obviously someone who spends their life filling up their HEART/soul with material go(O)ds never LIKELY finds the bottom of balance of simply being happy to be here on the planet and share with ALL others IN THE TRIBE like FRIGGING HUMAN BEINGS HAVE DONE GOING ON A MILLION YEARS, until they got sick, IN PART, AS A SOCIETY, in the head and body per emotional/physical imbalance.

And that's just a fact.

Scientific research shows that empirical measures of human empathy in college age adults have decreased by around 30 percent in the last several decades.

AND ANOTHER FACT IS SATISFACTION EXISTS IN HUMAN SHARING, FRIENDS, AND HEART INSTEAD OF THINGS.

SCIENCE bears this out too per social connection as the number one source of Human Happiness.

And duh, to socially cooperate means to be a social animal, and that's just Zoology 101.

THIS IS CLEAR AND EVIDENT INDICATORS OF AN UNHEALTHY SOCIETY.

AND, I think, MS RAND WOULD LIKELY BE PROUD OF IT, INSANELY SO, per way of an emotionally unbalanced mind.

Yeah, and I know as I have lived in both places well.

And I know for myself that the real WELL PLACE IS IN MY MIND AND BODY PER HEART AND CONNECTIONS TO ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

BUT NOT COLD HARD METAL, COINS OR CASH.

My uncle has millions and is never satisfied, as he can master money but no NOT his mind and body.

And I just smile and go on in bliss, as I know IT, YES, BLISS IS truly in human being mind and body and can be mastered by those FOLKS WHO INNATELY, INSTINCTUALLY AND INTUITIVELY LEARN how to practice and affectively effectively JUST DO IT.

Yeah, it's Just in my mind and body balance mastered by relative free will BUT CONNECTION TOO, WITH ALL OTHERS TOO, IN CARING AND SHARING WAYS, LIKE OUR REAL HUMAN ANCESTORS AND MANY FOLKS STILL do TODAY.

AND TO REUVYN AS I DO HAVE CLOSE TO A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY FOR WORDS, ONE TIME you asked Alex how you could get into some photos with beautiful girls.

Well, I can show you how it's done, and if you don't believe I can, I have irrefutable evidence established just yesterday in one quick reference page, publicly available in blog way.

I have 120 photos with at least 150 gorgeous different girls, that evidence that as true in irrefutable fact just since last spring, as I totally recovered from 19 documented illnesses.

AND MY WIFE IS THE MOST GORGEOUS OF ALL OF THEM, still age 44, and yes I can prove that too.

But you see it isn't money or even good looks that does it, AND HELL NO, NOT ANY MATERIAL ITEMS AT ALL, it is skill in human connection in the REAL DANCE AND SONG OF LIFE, WITH EVERYONE.

DOING IT JUST WITH MY FAMILY WOULD BE FRIGGING BORING, AS IT SHOULD BE FOR MOTIVATION TO GET OUT AND CONNECT to others too for unlimited TRUE BLISS IN LIFE AS INNATELY MOST OF US ARE BORN TO SHARE AND DO IN EMPATHIC WAYS.

I THINK MS RAND WAS A SAD AND UNFORTUNATE creature, perhaps one of the most disadvantaged creatures in the entire Universe to actually believe and live a life with an empty heart/soul like that, as yeah, again, been there and done both places, in REAL hell and heaven.

People in real literal hell have no idea what real literal heaven in life, now, is like; AGAIN BEEN THERE DONE BOTH PLACES SO I do know what the literal heaven and hell I am talking about.

I hope one day or lifetime they will, however that may work, as I only focus on NOW, and am 'KILLING IT' every step of life in NOW as WAY OF NOW.

AND YES I'm financially independent too, not because I like money, but because I do not need it to be happy.

My father loved it and died with about a third of what I saved with a 28-year head start.

And his average income was twice as much as mine.

He asked me how the hell did you do that, and I said it was very simple; I didn't NEED to spend it.

Yes, the most valuable commodity in the entire world IS MASTERY OVER ONE'S OWN MIND, AND NOT WORRYING ABOUT OWNING ANYTHING AT ALL AS ONE KNOWS WITH THIS WAY OF LIFE, THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE WHAT REALLY COUNTS IN LIFE AND ALWAYS HAVE; AGAIN IN mastery over their own mind and body in simple social animal balance.

It's hard for most rockets scientists to do that, as OVERALL they spend their time on equations instead of human being, AND YES, OF COURSE, there are always exceptions to every generality in life RULED OR OBSERVED. :)

As a participant observer Anthropologist, I find the fascination on this site and enthusiasm with MS. RAND truly fascinating too, as a study in full potential of HUMAN BEING, as yes, change is possible both negative and positive for empathic ways of life to grow in TRUE HUMAN HAPPINESS PER THE SCIENTIFIC FACTORED NUMBER ONE WAY TO JUST DO IT, in real life.


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08 Dec 2014, 8:03 pm

aghogday wrote:
Well, actually countries that work with the Nordic Model of a BALANCED MIX Of Free Market Capitalism and Social Welfare are among the healthiest scored societies in economic health in the world.

These societies are based both on the merit of individual contributions to the society as well as sharing the wealth so everyone will have an opportunity to make the merit of their individual contribution to society.

It works great per the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

Objectivism, generally speaking, is more a result of a sick society that makes sick humans in ways of emotional imbalance PER DEFICITS IN human empathy.

Human beings for the MOST PART ARE EMPATHIC CREATURES, OR AT LEAST BORN THAT WAY.

EVEN BONOBOS CARE FOR THE TRIBE AS WELL AS THEIR OWN.

SOME FOLKS DON'T HAVE IT, BUT THEY AND MS. RAND ARE FAR far in the minority.

YES, AND OFTEN THE WELL OFF MINORITY IN COLD HEARTED MATERIAL AND DOLLAR WAYS.

And obviously someone who spends their life filling up their HEART/soul with material go(O)ds never LIKELY finds the bottom of balance of simply being happy to be here on the planet and share with ALL others IN THE TRIBE like FRIGGING HUMAN BEINGS HAVE DONE GOING ON A MILLION YEARS, until they got sick, IN PART, AS A SOCIETY, in the head and body per emotional/physical imbalance.

And that's just a fact.

Scientific research shows that empirical measures of human empathy in college age adults have decreased by around 30 percent in the last several decades.

AND ANOTHER FACT IS SATISFACTION EXISTS IN HUMAN SHARING, FRIENDS, AND HEART INSTEAD OF THINGS.

SCIENCE bears this out too per social connection as the number one source of Human Happiness.

And duh, to socially cooperate means to be a social animal, and that's just Zoology 101.

THIS IS CLEAR AND EVIDENT INDICATORS OF AN UNHEALTHY SOCIETY.

AND, I think, MS RAND WOULD LIKELY BE PROUD OF IT, INSANELY SO, per way of an emotionally unbalanced mind.

Yeah, and I know as I have lived in both places well.

And I know for myself that the real WELL PLACE IS IN MY MIND AND BODY PER HEART AND CONNECTIONS TO ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

BUT NOT COLD HARD METAL, COINS OR CASH.

My uncle has millions and is never satisfied, as he can master money but no NOT his mind and body.

And I just smile and go on in bliss, as I know IT, YES, BLISS IS truly in human being mind and body and can be mastered by those FOLKS WHO INNATELY, INSTINCTUALLY AND INTUITIVELY LEARN how to practice and affectively effectively JUST DO IT.

Yeah, it's Just in my mind and body balance mastered by relative free will BUT CONNECTION TOO, WITH ALL OTHERS TOO, IN CARING AND SHARING WAYS, LIKE OUR REAL HUMAN ANCESTORS AND MANY FOLKS STILL do TODAY.

AND TO REUVYN AS I DO HAVE CLOSE TO A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY FOR WORDS, ONE TIME you asked Alex how you could get into some photos with beautiful girls.

Well, I can show you how it's done, and if you don't believe I can, I have irrefutable evidence established just yesterday in one quick reference page, publicly available in blog way.

I have 120 photos with at least 150 gorgeous different girls, that evidence that as true in irrefutable fact just since last spring, as I totally recovered from 19 documented illnesses.

AND MY WIFE IS THE MOST GORGEOUS OF ALL OF THEM, still age 44, and yes I can prove that too.

But you see it isn't money or even good looks that does it, AND HELL NO, NOT ANY MATERIAL ITEMS AT ALL, it is skill in human connection in the REAL DANCE AND SONG OF LIFE, WITH EVERYONE.

DOING IT JUST WITH MY FAMILY WOULD BE FRIGGING BORING, AS IT SHOULD BE FOR MOTIVATION TO GET OUT AND CONNECT to others too for unlimited TRUE BLISS IN LIFE AS INNATELY MOST OF US ARE BORN TO SHARE AND DO IN EMPATHIC WAYS.

I THINK MS RAND WAS A SAD AND UNFORTUNATE creature, perhaps one of the most disadvantaged creatures in the entire Universe to actually believe and live a life with an empty heart/soul like that, as yeah, again, been there and done both places, in REAL hell and heaven.

People in real literal hell have no idea what real literal heaven in life, now, is like; AGAIN BEEN THERE DONE BOTH PLACES SO I do know what the literal heaven and hell I am talking about.

I hope one day or lifetime they will, however that may work, as I only focus on NOW, and am 'KILLING IT' every step of life in NOW as WAY OF NOW.

AND YES I'm financially independent too, not because I like money, but because I do not need it to be happy.

My father loved it and died with about a third of what I saved with a 28-year head start.

And his average income was twice as much as mine.

He asked me how the hell did you do that, and I said it was very simple; I didn't NEED to spend it.

Yes, the most valuable commodity in the entire world IS MASTERY OVER ONE'S OWN MIND, AND NOT WORRYING ABOUT OWNING ANYTHING AT ALL AS ONE KNOWS WITH THIS WAY OF LIFE, THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE WHAT REALLY COUNTS IN LIFE AND ALWAYS HAVE; AGAIN IN mastery over their own mind and body in simple social animal balance.

It's hard for most rockets scientists to do that, as OVERALL they spend their time on equations instead of human being, AND YES, OF COURSE, there are always exceptions to every generality in life RULED OR OBSERVED. :)

As a participant observer Anthropologist, I find the fascination on this site and enthusiasm with MS. RAND truly fascinating too, as a study in full potential of HUMAN BEING, as yes, change is possible both negative and positive for empathic ways of life to grow in TRUE HUMAN HAPPINESS PER THE SCIENTIFIC FACTORED NUMBER ONE WAY TO JUST DO IT, in real life.


The Nordic model sounds just fine to me, and I have been advocating for such a system for years now without knowing that it has a specific name.
Ayn Rand was a soulless harpy who appeals to other people who use her fiction to try to fill the hole left in their psyches where a conscience should be.


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08 Dec 2014, 8:07 pm

likewise. The middle way might not be a universal success, but it is often enough to be a default.



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08 Dec 2014, 9:56 pm

If only it were greater. I can think of nothing that would improve American society more than a general commitment to reason, a universal recognition of the principle that the sole legitimate purpose of government is the defense of individual rights, and an absolute rejection of the notion that any good can be accomplished through the initiation of violence, force, and aggression.


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08 Dec 2014, 11:28 pm

luan78zao wrote:
If only it were greater. I can think of nothing that would improve American society more than a general commitment to reason, a universal recognition of the principle that the sole legitimate purpose of government is the defense of individual rights, and an absolute rejection of the notion that any good can be accomplished through the initiation of violence, force, and aggression.


But sometimes force is necessary when enforcing the rule of law, or to defend the rights of others. And the government has the responsibility to not only defend the rights of the individual, but the people's welfare in general.


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08 Dec 2014, 11:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
But sometimes force is necessary when enforcing the rule of law, or to defend the rights of others.


Perhaps you missed the word "initiation." To initiate force in defense of rights would be a contradiction. Nobody has the right to aggress against others. Retaliatory force is a different issue.

Quote:
And the government has the responsibility to not only defend the rights of the individual, but the people's welfare in general.


We're not going to agree here. I say that "the people" is no more than a collection of individuals, who neither gain nor lose rights by being considered as a group. And something is "general" only if it applies to every single individual. I don't believe it is proper to violate the rights of some in order to (allegedly) benefit others. That way lies the Gulag.


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09 Dec 2014, 12:02 am

luan78zao wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But sometimes force is necessary when enforcing the rule of law, or to defend the rights of others.


Perhaps you missed the word "initiation." To initiate force in defense of rights would be a contradiction. Nobody has the right to aggress against others. Retaliatory force is a different issue.

Quote:
And the government has the responsibility to not only defend the rights of the individual, but the people's welfare in general.


We're not going to agree here. I say that "the people" is no more than a collection of individuals, who neither gain nor lose rights by being considered as a group. And something is "general" only if it applies to every single individual. I don't believe it is proper to violate the rights of some in order to (allegedly) benefit others. That way lies the Gulag.


I absolutely agree that the rights of some should not be promoted over the rights of others - that being said, it should be pointed out that racists have opposed civil rights legislation by misusing that very argument.


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09 Dec 2014, 12:06 am

luan78zao wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But sometimes force is necessary when enforcing the rule of law, or to defend the rights of others.


Perhaps you missed the word "initiation." To initiate force in defense of rights would be a contradiction. Nobody has the right to aggress against others. Retaliatory force is a different issue.

Quote:
And the government has the responsibility to not only defend the rights of the individual, but the people's welfare in general.


We're not going to agree here. I say that "the people" is no more than a collection of individuals, who neither gain nor lose rights by being considered as a group. And something is "general" only if it applies to every single individual. I don't believe it is proper to violate the rights of some in order to (allegedly) benefit others. That way lies the Gulag.
As well, the rights of the rich have been promoted over the rights of the poor, or the rights of the strong have been promoted over the rights of the weak with that same argument. And while in an ideal society, we'd all be taken as individuals, but the fact is, in reality that notion is rather naive. Human beings place themselves and others in groups, and that being the case, they view the "other" as unequal.


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09 Dec 2014, 12:58 am

B19 wrote:
As an outsider, it seems a curious anomaly to me that the America which was so disapproving of anything Russian in the decades that Rand was writing tolerated her stuff as much as they did, and in some cases lionised it. Her russian origins tended to get deleted out by the proponents of her "objectivism" - which wasn't objective but politically motivated.


A large part of Rand's motivation was anti-Soviet, the fact that she was from there only made her critique more legitimate.


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09 Dec 2014, 1:26 am

Yes, that explains it..



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09 Dec 2014, 1:38 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
As well, the rights of the rich have been promoted over the rights of the poor, or the rights of the strong have been promoted over the rights of the weak with that same argument.


I told you we wouldn't agree. You don't see individuals, you see amorphous collectives, and assume that one group can benefit only at the expense of another.

Quote:
And while in an ideal society, we'd all be taken as individuals, but the fact is, in reality that notion is rather naive. Human beings place themselves and others in groups, and that being the case, they view the "other" as unequal.


Speak for yourself.


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09 Dec 2014, 2:09 am

luan78zao wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As well, the rights of the rich have been promoted over the rights of the poor, or the rights of the strong have been promoted over the rights of the weak with that same argument.


I told you we wouldn't agree. You don't see individuals, you see amorphous collectives, and assume that one group can benefit only at the expense of another.

Quote:
And while in an ideal society, we'd all be taken as individuals, but the fact is, in reality that notion is rather naive. Human beings place themselves and others in groups, and that being the case, they view the "other" as unequal.


Speak for yourself.



It may surprise you, but people who regularly step on other people lump them into groups in order to justify it.
And when did I say one group could only benefit at the expense of another? Far from it, I want everyone to have an equal share of the pie. But again, it's naive to assume people don't group themselves and other people into groups. It would be great to just be individuals, but that will never be part of the human experience, so we have to defend the rights of those who are stepped on by others just because they are of a different skin color, speak a different language, practice a different religion, come from a different part of the world, or are of a lower economic status.


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09 Dec 2014, 2:34 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
The Nordic model sounds just fine to me, and I have been advocating for such a system for years now without knowing that it has a specific name.
Ayn Rand was a soulless harpy who appeals to other people who use her fiction to try to fill the hole left in their psyches where a conscience should be.


ONE important caveat per your recent comment on human difference and group identification is that NORDIC societies per their historical success in the Nordic Model for economy are largely homogenous societies where for the MOST part everyone looks relatively the same IN EXTERIOR appearance.

With Muslim immigration into Sweden has come a great deal of resentment towards the difference in color and religion as well. The indigenous folks are not as keen on providing financial support either.

Humans ARE IN INHERENTLY and CULTURAL ENVIRONMENTALLY DISCRIMINATORY social ANIMALS TO WHAT IS DIFFERENT IN PHYSICAL AND CULTURAL DIFFERENCES DEVIATING substantially FROM the perceived norm.

And conflicts of immigration into these countries, in some cases, proves out just how inherently and culturally discriminatory these conflicts can be.

THE MELTING POT OF THE US, MAKES IT INHERENTLY AND ENVIRONMENTALLY HARDER TO SHARE AND MAKES IT HARD FOR THOSE WHO ARE SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT TO SURVIVE, AT TIMES.

Without a social welfare state at least as strong AS currently exists in the U.S., anarchy could arise and that would not be fun for anyone, except sadists and masochists and other empathy lacking folks.

PEOPLE WHEN CHALLENGED ENOUGH, will do WHATEVER IT TAKES FOR SUBSISTENCE.

AND yes, if MS. Rand was still alive she would reap THESE 'benefits' of her philosophy if ever truly instituted in any society, she lived in.

The old saying be careful what ya wish for most definitely does apply here, OVERALL.

IF STATISTICS ARE CORRECT FOR THE FOLKS HERE ON THE Autism spectrum, given enough time, even the majority of folks who are against social welfare will be receiving it, if they live long enough.

And then the tune may change to a different broadcasting station. :)

As again, people WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO SURVIVE. :)


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