Do you think healthcare is a right?

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I give that an AMEN!! !

Now you both are talking like playground bullies, which is probably a way to discourage further debate, but, of course, being autistic and all that, I can't ever be sure.

Just because you don't give a fig about the wailing of those robbed to benefit you doesn't make it any less robbery. And they won't give a fig about your wailing when they defend themselves and cut it off.

The only difference is, cutting off someone's health coverage is fatal. No amount of money has more worth than a human life.

i don't agree with your analogy of tax being robbery. it's not this simple, as it also benefit the person who is supposedly being robbed, even if she isn't directly using a public health system (or any welfare program) it does contribute to a better society, where they can prosper better, as people will have less reasons to revolt or commit crimes if they have basic needs covered, also healthier population are better workers, and a good universal healthcare can deal with spreadable diseases.

This looks a lot like a thread I've answered to before, and I don't see my post but if I say something now nearly identical to something a few pages ago please forgive me.

The bigger question to me isn't whether it should be a right but whether it 'can' be a right.

Even in the US, as we're considered to have a bit of a plutocratic system, technically if you have no money and need to be taken to the ER the Hippocratic oath is in effect and the system takes care of you. The trouble comes in for those who aren't dealing with punctuated incidents and have very expensive and challenging long-term health concerns to deal with such as diabetes and cancer for example or many kinds of crippling neurological and mental health conditions.

Part of our problem I think is technological and way may very well see it changing rapidly. The most important advances I think toward having healthcare as a right is preventative care. For example I've read at least an article or two about Japanese toilets designed to analyze your urine for early precursors of cancer and other health problems that can show up in your urine. We may very well find ways to make blood tests that cheap. Eventually, even within our lifetimes, it could be that we'll find plenty of household products for less than $100 which monitor our health almost as well as a full-time team of doctors. Some people have also said that 5G will be a great catalyst for medical information and assistance.

I think we're on our way to making this a moot point relatively soon. May not be much comfort for those who are struggling today and will be for the next few decades or passing. If anything though, if we really want to help the people who are physically and financially suffering over health, probably the best way we can help them is put our R&D toward their specific problems and finding way as soon as possible to stop their long-term conditions from being tantamount to life-long crippling debt.

It's not even an analogy. The only reason we don't call it robbery is that the ones committing it don't. That's hardly a sound reason.



Whatever the robber does with the stolen goods doesn't change the fact that it's robbery. Only voluntary donations are not robbery. If those alleged benefits were convincing enough to the people paying for them, they wouldn't need to be robbed.

Noöne has any business telling you what you should or should not be interested in or what your own money should be spent on. That's what robbers, bullies and tyrants do.



Better as judged by whom? Certainly not those you have to take money from by force to maintain it. If they deemed it a better society, they wouldn't have to be forced to pay for it; they'd do it of their own free will.



You can't fight crime with crime. You're essentially saying people should put up with the big robber (government) in case other criminals show up in its absence. Well, let people decide how to deal with the criminals as they come, shall we? For starters, investing on weapons, ammo and training is probably a much more effective strategy than feeding the enemy.



So does letting diseased criminals die either naturally or in self-defense when they trespass on your property or try to steal anything from you.

And, you know, the best way to help those able and willing to pay for the R&D is to focus on their particular needs and stop spending resources helping the rest.

As technology makes more and more people redundant, the global human population will be reduced one way or other. It's not a matter of whether, but when and how, and, as always, it's not about who is right, but who is left.

People in need are not diseased criminals.
Stocking up on guns and ammo isn't going to solve criminality. If anything, that sort of vigilantism will only cause more.
Every life has worth, not just those of taxpayers.

I'm gonna Triple up on the Tag Team of Love Versus those who basically don't give a Crap now about anyone
else but those in their tight circles of life that may go as low as one too as that will be Group and Single think too
that yeah, I Thank God for Obama; Nah, he didn't do anything for me personally for increasing the size of my current
Big Fat Wallet in the Bank the way that Bush with all his Free Social Welfare Tax Give aways to those who are more
Affluent and the Current Trump/Ryan Social Welfare Give away to top Dog Folks in the Money Pool now but what
was and still is and will be for a very long time the Altruistic Benefit of the Obama Heritage is yes, the Fact that
some folks who couldn't possibly attain enough Health Insurance for at least a Safety Net where they wouldn't
go broke, or at worse die now from a Chronic Disease is yes, My Sister was able to Retire from close to a
6 Figure Well Padded Government Contractor Job at age 55 instead of age 65 after working 30 Years
at that Job. And yes, if you are also diagnosed on an Autism Spectrum you better think twice and
three times more if you don't think you are ever gonna need some kind of Government Provided
Social Net to make it all the way through life. You might be on the easy end of stuff now but yes
Sh88 happens all the time now and your number may be up yet with a Hand out and begging for some help
as many folks do just to survive now at a most basic bottom of Maslow's Pyramid of Existence up to the top
of Human Thrive with Love to give and share with all others and the rest of existence now. Yes, more specifically
My Sister is Diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome too and she was staying with the Extreme Stress of Her Job just
for an issue of gaining affordable Health Care then. With continued Stress more than likely it would have not only
made it impossible for her to have any Happiness in life; but also lead to a much shorter full span of life too in just
more misery and suffering of all the disease stress will make real now. She got out 10 Years early from Medicare and
pays a measly 25 Dollars a Month for a Bronze Obama Plan now. That's enough to make sure she doesn't go broke
with a Catastrophic Chronic Health Condition as those can and will come at any age as sure you could get in a Car
Accident tomorrow and all the Modern Research and Development for Preventative Medicine won't do a thing for
you with Catastrophic Injury from any Accident in life. An other Safer option might be stick inside your home
but what the Hell is Life Worth without any Liberty now. Love is the way to Liberty; Love Freely shared and
given by all. If You don't have that according to Science, at least, you are just about as sick as sick comes sadly
now with or without Insurance as the fact of the matter is too that is an incurable disease for some it still seems now.

When a Cure comes for 'that' so many more folks will Truly Win at Life (Happiness that's real at core too {Love})

Don't want to pay taxes?

Go live in the woods and eat berries and bugs. Society isn't obligated to allow you to benefit from its infrastructure scot-free.

You're perfectly content to be obese and drive-up health insurance premiums for those of us who choose to live healthy lifestyles. Don't wag a finger at me until you clean your own back porch.

People who commit crimes are criminals. If they can survive without taking anything from anyone else by force, let them. If they can't, what I said before applies.



It's your responsibility to defend your life and property. Succeed at it and you're doing all you need to do against "criminality". Fail and the one who defeated you will gladly take over that responsibility. Natural selection.



Self-defense is not vigilantism.



Every life, like everything else in the world, is worth to each person exactly as much or as little as they decide to value it. Noöne has any business telling anyone else how much anything should be worth to them. Trying to do so will only breed discontent and rebellion.

Are you even trying to make any sense, or just randomly attacking me with what you think will hurt me most or make me look the worst, for having the temerity to reason my disagreement with your earlier points?

The fact of the matter is that society is allowing me to benefit scot-free. I'm one of the moochers, and I haven't exactly tried to keep it a secret. In fact, I don't think I'd survive if true justice were served. But this doesn't make the current situation any less unjust. What is right isn't defined by what is good for me personally, or for anyone else in particular.

So I'm not complaining for having to pay taxes, since I'm a net taker. On the other hand, net contributors are paying more than their fair share for society's infrastructure, so they're the last ones who should be told to go live in the woods. They're being robbed and morally have every right to defend themselves and stop feeding their enemy, which they're already doing, albeit slowly.



If you'd followed my posts with the same zeal you seem to show when it comes to bringing up my "dirty laundry", you'd know I'm far from "perfectly content" to be obese. You might also know I've made sure the bulk of my fat intake is of healthiest varieties, and last time I was checked, I had below-average cholesterol levels, so I'm unlikely to develop the typical health problems associated with obesity.



And that's what your post boils down to: an ad-hominem to draw attention away from the simple fact that robbery is robbery no matter what form it takes or who benefits from it. I can be the most despicable hypocrite in history and still this fact won't stop being true just because I'm the one invoking it.

Everything you said goes against the basic principles of not only western civilization, but of what's decent and human.
Those in need are not stealing anything, even if taxation was theft. They are not in charge of taxation, or the gathering of said taxes.
Only violence and death will be the result if people are told to solve crimes against them, as many people would use that as a pretext to kill anyone else for the most trivial reasons. That's why we have laws and law enforcement professionals to handle crimes. And yes, the alternative is vigilantism.
To say that human life - or worse, certain human lives - are of less or no worth is indefensible. Western society is based entirely on the worth of the individual. As social creatures that we humans are, it's in our very genetic makeup to cooperate and care for one another. The social ideology of "let the weak die" that you're advocating violates the basics of human nature, and would ultimately lead to our demise as a species.
To apply Darwin's natural selection and survival of the fittest has no validity when used to defend the entirely discredited pseudo political ideology of social Darwinism.
I presume you fished this all out of Ayn Rand and her modern day acolytes. Well, all that is nothing but crap based on a very superficial, barely understood reading of Nietzsche. I have to assume that like the rest of us here on WP, you hardly fit the image of the Randian superman.
As for your fear of those with money rebelling in defense of their own stinginess, I'll leave you with this warning: those without are more likely to violently rise up, as the alternative is the loss of their lives and the lives of their loved ones.

Don't want to pay taxes? Go live in the woods and eat bugs. It really is that simple. If you, or anyone else, don't want to contribute to society's infrastructure, you have no right to benefit from it.

It's hardly "robbery" to pay for what you use. There's no such thing as a "right" to be comfortable.



Sorry, but there's no such thing as "benign obesity." Just because you don't have any problems now doesn't mean you won't in the future. Not to mention, merely by being the size you are, you're putting an extra strain on any emergency services that should be called in to help you.



Having to pay for what you use is not "robbery." Choosing not to forsake comfort is not "robbery." Choosing to remain in a country whose taxes system you disagree with is not "robbery."

If you actually believed anything you said, you'd either go live in the woods, where you wouldn't have to "robbed" by taxes, or you'd move to a country with a piss-poor infrastructure where you could live your "survival of the fittest" dream. Otherwise, you're just trolling and expelling hot air.

Most people who want to impose "survival of the fittest" on human society have no idea what "survival of the fittest" actually means in the biological sense.

Even wolves take care of the weak and sick members of their pack.

This is very well said. The ideas you give are among the reasons that I'm Pro-life. The largely global inhumane treatment of the most helpless among us potentially leading to our demise as a species is also a reason that our current culture is considered by many to be a "culture of death".

Last edited by Magna on 25 Jul 2018, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.