Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?

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funeralxempire
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25 Dec 2023, 2:05 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Many polls indicate the vast majority of Israeli citizens want peace with the Palestinians. I think that should be starting point for reconciliation rather than focusing on one two bad apples in the Knesset.


Lol, imagine still believing this is an accurate assessment.

All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


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Jono
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25 Dec 2023, 2:17 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Many polls indicate the vast majority of Israeli citizens want peace with the Palestinians. I think that should be starting point for reconciliation rather than focusing on one two bad apples in the Knesset.


Lol, imagine still believing this is an accurate assessment.

All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


So, all Israeli political parties are extreme religious right-wing zealots? There are no political parties that Israeli's can vote for who are not extreme in their views?



funeralxempire
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25 Dec 2023, 2:39 pm

Jono wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Many polls indicate the vast majority of Israeli citizens want peace with the Palestinians. I think that should be starting point for reconciliation rather than focusing on one two bad apples in the Knesset.


Lol, imagine still believing this is an accurate assessment.

All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


So, all Israeli political parties are extreme religious right-wing zealots? There are no political parties that Israeli's can vote for who are not extreme in their views?


The ones that seem likely to hold power in the foreseeable future are right-wing zealots, whether religious or merely ethno-nationalist.

Which Israeli parties have condemned Israel's campaign of violence so far?


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Jono
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25 Dec 2023, 3:17 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Jono wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Many polls indicate the vast majority of Israeli citizens want peace with the Palestinians. I think that should be starting point for reconciliation rather than focusing on one two bad apples in the Knesset.


Lol, imagine still believing this is an accurate assessment.

All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


So, all Israeli political parties are extreme religious right-wing zealots? There are no political parties that Israeli's can vote for who are not extreme in their views?


The ones that seem likely to hold power in the foreseeable future are right-wing zealots, whether religious or merely ethno-nationalist.

Which Israeli parties have condemned Israel's campaign of violence so far?


Well, considering that most Israeli's have turned against Netanyahu, that seems unlikely to me. His government was the most right-wing coalition in decades which means that when he goes, I think any new government would be more left-wing. I find it hard to believe that there aren't any Israelis who are becoming sick of the war and deaths of Palestinians, especially considering that there have been deaths of Israeli hostages, taken by Hamas on 7 October, at the hands of IDF soldiers even though most still want Hamas destroyed, and for good reason.



funeralxempire
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25 Dec 2023, 4:16 pm

Jono wrote:
His government was the most right-wing coalition in decades which means that when he goes, I think any new government would be more left-wing.


More left-wing than the most right-wing government they've had in decades doesn't mean much. The second most right-wing government they've had in decades would be more left-wing.

Not that right vs. left is decisive here, unless the left-wing parties are willing to repudiate the actions and policies of the current government there's no reason to trust them anymore than the ones currently in power. Left vs. right doesn't mean anything when they're in consensus on an issue.

Until Israel elects a government that demonstrates a consistent effort to engage with the Palestinians in good faith Israel should be sanctioned, not subsidized.


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Mona Pereth
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25 Dec 2023, 5:16 pm

Jono wrote:
I don't think that the US government would allow a genocide to happen in Gaza if they can help it.

The U.S. government is already not just "allowing" but enabling genocide, given the rate at which Gazans are getting killed. Even as of a month ago, this war was already one of the deadliest-per-civilian-capita (on the Gazan side only) wars within the past hundred years. See:

- Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Killed at Historic Pace by Lauren Leatherby, New York Times, November 25, 2023
- Israel's use of 'really big' bombs to strike tiny Gaza Strip might only compare to Vietnam or World War II, military analyst says by Alia Shoaib, Business Insider, Nov 26, 2023, 7:36 AM EST

That was a month ago. And it has continued. See also the following Financial Times reports from earlier this month:

- Military briefing: the Israeli bombs raining on Gaza, by John Paul Rathbone in London December 6 2023
- Visual analysis: the wastelands in Gaza’s two biggest cities, by Mehul Srivastava in Jaffa and Alan Smith in London December 21 2023

Commenting on the first of the above two Financial Times reports, The New Arab published Israel destroying Gaza at faster rate than WWII carpet bombing of Germany: report, 07 December, 2023. It pointed out that the amount of destruction in only seven weeks was greater, per capita, than "the carpet bombing seen in the German cities of Cologne, Hamburg and Dresden, after two years of air attacks by the Allied powers [...] in World War Two."

The destruction has been vastly disproportionate to the scale of the October 7 Hamas attack.

And Gaza is not Nazi Germany. Hamas is/was nowhere near as much of threat -- even to just one country (Israel), much less to the rest of the world -- as Nazi Germany was.

If Biden doesn't want to immediately pull the plug completely, he could at least cut out shipments of (1) dumb bombs and/or (2) the more highly explosive kinds of bombs (e.g. 2000 lbs.).

So far, Biden has engaged in some token finger-wagging, but what is really needed is to halt, or at least drastically slow down, shipments of U.S.A.-made bombs to Israel -- especially the deadlier kinds of bombs.

Let's not wait for Israel to get as bad as Nazi Germany itself, in terms of civilian deaths per capita, before the U.S.A. finally decides to stop arming Israel.

Jono wrote:
I think that they believe that an unconditional ceasefire would be bad because it might allow Hamas to regroup and regain power.

Well, tough. It is largely Netanyahu's fault that Hamas got into power in the first place.

We need the U.S.A. to get serious about pressuring Israel into a real -- and humane -- longterm solution to the Israel/Palestine problem, instead of continuing to allow Israel to commit genocide, as it is now very much in process of doing.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 25 Dec 2023, 5:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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25 Dec 2023, 5:21 pm

Jono wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Am I the only one feeling dejavu about 9/11?


No, you're not. This is the same thing that happened after 9/11 in America, when the US invaded Afghanistan.

... and then Iraq.

Yes, it's the same general kind of thing -- a vast, inhumane over-reaction -- but what Israel is doing now is far worse, in terms of sheer quantity of deaths and destruction per (civilian) capita, and at a much faster rate.


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RedDeathFlower13
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25 Dec 2023, 5:44 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Jono wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Am I the only one feeling dejavu about 9/11?


No, you're not. This is the same thing that happened after 9/11 in America, when the US invaded Afghanistan.

... and then Iraq.

Yes, it's the same general kind of thing -- a vast, inhumane over-reaction -- but what Israel is doing now is far worse, in terms of sheer quantity of deaths and destruction per (civilian) capita, and at a much faster rate.


With the US government's blessing.


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Mona Pereth
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25 Dec 2023, 6:24 pm

One reason to be very concerned about the genocidal intentions of the current Israeli government is Netanyahu's "Amalek" rhetoric. In the Bible, Amalek was a nation that the Israelites were commanded to destroy completely. Furthermore, this was an ongoing command to subsequent generations of Israelites, even after the nation of Amalek had presumably been destroyed already.

Many Jews today interpret this command symbolically, in terms of internal moral struggle, as a command to destroy one's own inner "Amalek." Others deem this command to be obsolete. But, alas, there are some Jews, apparently including Netanyahu, who interpret it as a command to commit literal total genocide against real-life modern-day nations whom they identify with Amalek.

An explanation and criticism of Netanyahu's "Amalek" rhetoric, by other Jews, can be found in Comparing Hamas to Amalek, our biblical nemesis, will ultimately hurt Israel by Joshua Krug, The Jewish News of Northern California, November 2, 2023:

Quote:
On the evening of Oct. 28, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu addressed his country. Among other points, he made an argument for the war in Gaza, positioning Hamas as an iteration of the biblical Amalek. Netanyahu quoted Deuteronomy 25:17, “You must remember what Amalek did to you.”

However, Deuteronomy 25:19 continues: “You shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Never forget!” The Hebrew Bible later calls for the killing of the entire — and profoundly antisemitic — nation of Amalek, as well as its animals, in I Samuel.

Although Netanyahu referenced only Deuteronomy 25:17, positioning Hamas as akin to Amalek — even if undertaken rhetorically — is tactically, strategically and morally wrong-headed. The prime minister’s words are read closely and taken seriously in diverse quarters.

Netanyahu’s words can be read or, better put, misread as intended to ground and justify Jewish “holy war” in Gaza. In recent days, publications in places such as Turkey, India, the U.S. and Bosnia and Herzegovina did just that.

Netanyahu and so many of us regard the actions of Hamas on Oct. 7 as evil. However, to invoke Amalek in such a way and without elucidation now is not appropriate.

Hamas is not Amalek. Hamas is an Islamist movement, an offshoot of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Further, Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization willing to intentionally perpetrate violence against civilians.

Within the biblical text, God commands the Israelites to regard the hateful Amalekites as the ultimate mortal enemy whose annihilation they must seek for eternity. The State of Israel shouldn’t wish to be portrayed in the same way. The word in contemporary parlance for what the ancient text commands is “genocide.”

Israel is already being wrongly accused of genocide. In the history of biblical interpretation, rabbis rendered Amalek metaphorically rather than literally — as external existential threats in the ongoing life of the Jewish people, including the Romans, the Nazis, the Stalinists and others.

In other contexts, rabbis positioned Amalek as an internal, psychological evil that needed to be vanquished within each individual. Many contemporary rabbis, following the lead of Jewish leaders of prior generations, consider the mitzvah to destroy Amalek obsolete.

The events of Oct. 7 call for intentional language from leadership that both testifies to the horror of the massacres of that day and motivates people to take appropriate action. The pursuit of justice for victims and their families, the return of hostages, and the enabling of a better way for Israel to exist side by side with Gaza and its other neighbors would all be worthy, possible aims.

In a time when his political position is shaky, Netanyahu’s invocation of Amalek tapped into the narrative power of a dog whistle, emotionally motivating members of his religious base to action in a moment of (justifiable) pain and anger at the recent actions of Israel’s enemies.

His linguistic choice is cynical, manipulative and dangerous in a time of war when many people worldwide are listening to his words and — wrongly, to be clear — now adding this data point to their ammunition in allegations that Israel is committing genocide.

[...]

As a Jew, as a citizen of a country that supports Israel and as a human who yearns for the wellbeing of Israelis and Palestinians, I hope the prime minister will clarify the goals of this war. In the beginning of the Oct. 28 speech, he said the goals are “destroying Hamas’ military and governing capabilities, and bringing the captives back home.” Elsewhere, he speaks of “eradicating this evil.” Later, he refers to “destroying the murderous enemy and ensuring our existence in the land.”

Some of those goals appear at odds. Do Israel’s (and America’s) leaders know what the practical outcomes of each one will be?

Israel must be strategic in each and every component of its next steps. The State of Israel is not the ancient Israelites and Palestinians are not the Amalekites. Israel, like all countries, operates amid the reality of ongoing history — not amid a story. The state’s leaders do not have the privilege of forgetting this.

The author of this article, written back on November 2, denied that Israel was in fact beginning to commit genocide, and complained only that Netanyahu's rhetoric made Israel look like it has genocidal intentions.

Back on November 2, it could be argued that there was still reason to hope that Israel might show restraint. But it seems to me that Israel's subsequent actions are consistent with a genuine genocidal intent on the part of the current Israeli government.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 25 Dec 2023, 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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25 Dec 2023, 6:54 pm

It's not only some Jews who are identifying Hamas and Gaza with "Amalek," but it appears that quite a few American Christian religious right wingers are echoing this rhetoric too. See:

- Netanyahu’s Genocidal Religious Rhetoric isn’t Just an Appeal to the Israeli Right — He Has Another Constituency in Mind by Brock Bahler, Religion Dispatches, November 19, 2023.
- Christian Right Cites Violent Biblical Amalek Trope to Justify Israel’s Tactics: "Many Christian Zionists are backing genocide by likening Hamas to a biblical tribe that God promised to exterminate," by Aidan Orly, Truthout, October 22, 2023.

This is making it harder for Biden to pull the plug on the ongoing slaughter in Gaza.


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25 Dec 2023, 7:10 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


really? "all"



cyberdad
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25 Dec 2023, 7:20 pm

I agree with Jono, the spike in pro-war Israelis is because they are polled after 10-7. The same reaction would occur if you polled New Yorkers straight after 9-11 as everyone in NY knew of somebody who was affected by the terror attack.

The truth is Israelis want to be left alone and not have to worry about their kids getting "jumped" by HAMAS on their way to school. or having their homes subject to shelling. I think when this all dies down people will want to make amends and seek peace. In some ways they have no choice.



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25 Dec 2023, 7:21 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


really? "all"


I find this amusing coming from a guy who claims all Americans deserve a leader like Donald Trump.


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25 Dec 2023, 7:27 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


really? "all"


I find this amusing coming from a guy who claims all Americans deserve a leader like Donald Trump.


Didn't actually use those words - I said a significant proportion who voted for Trump.



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25 Dec 2023, 7:42 pm

cyberdad wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
All the apples are bad, the whole f*****g barrel.


really? "all"


I find this amusing coming from a guy who claims all Americans deserve a leader like Donald Trump.




Didn't actually use those words - I said a significant proportion who voted for Trump.


That's not the impression I get from you though whenever I read in-between the lines.


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25 Dec 2023, 8:30 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Didn't actually use those words - I said a significant proportion who voted for Trump.


That's not the impression I get from you though whenever I read in-between the lines.

As autistic people, we tend not to be very good at reading in-between the lines, nor do NT's tend to be very good at reading in-between autistic people's lines.

So I think we're better off focusing on the lines themselves, and confining any "reading in-between the lines" to strict logical implications.


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