why such huge veneration of science?

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Well, I'm happy that you feel that way. Personally though I wouldn't grieve to leave humanity and the planet behind.

AT ONE point in my life I was extremely selfish, misanthropic, and even beyond the true 'evil' of Adolph Hitler in conscious intent, as because of my suffering alone, I wished catastrophe and death for all the earth, just so I wouldn't have to do kill myself to escape pain. What a COWARD I WAS.

But by that point pain had taken all my human pro-social emotions, AND true FEELING empathy for humans and all of nature away AND me TOO AS NOT WELL AT ALL.

I was broken to 'feel' that way, which truly was only empty shells of 'EVIL' logical words and not feeling at all, and I can easily admit it now that I am fully human again.

And to be clear that is just my experience and I am not suggesting at all that I know your experience from just the few words you write above.

But my point is, it is possible in the future you may FEEL COMPLETELY different than you do now.

So, I suggest not to discount that real possibility, as well. :)

That's possible. You are more than 20 years older than I am. I did have some kind of psychotic experience, Christ consciousness or whatever. However, I have not become a Christian or walked the path of Christ, although that might happen at some point, instead I have become increasingly psychopathic and increasingly detached from emotion, myself and the world at large. I don't complain though, the more detached the better as far as I'm concerned. I do kind of feel like I'm fading away into nothingness sometimes though. But then again, I never felt that there was much in that existence to miss, so maybe eternal nothingness is to be preferred. That reminds me a lot of Interstellar and the poem they quoted multiple times in that long-ass boring movie:



This does not resonate with me at all. I had a psychotic episode or something like that this summer. I had performed some good deeds and as it seemed was rewarded for it. I felt God's presence and it was as if some floodgates of the mind opened up and things I had forgotten I had known about came into my conscious awareness, and feelings of joy. Despite that, I have no desire at all to rage against any dying light. I prefer this by Bloodhound Gang:



You talked about emotion coming from "motivating action". That sounds reasonable. In that context I have read this passage in History of Western Philosophy by Bertrand Russell, which may or may not be true. I might have quoted that before.

If I'm understanding you correctly, then this is what I have been doing all my life, and I would guess a great many people on this forum do it too.
Are you saying that our conscious minds suppress/repress our subconscious minds to an extreme degree?




Can you explain that a bit more analytically? Yes our culture is obsessed with hierarchal social structures, and there is much manipulation and mind control going on there, but what else are you saying here in relation to our subconscious activities?
I have not yet seen the movie, but will try to soon.



I'm afraid I can't so much at this point, and as I said, that may be the case with many others here.
Psychological differences draw abuse, and abuse results in pain, and pain is due to emotion coming through our subconscious, and our conscious mind naturally tries to hide or block the source of pain. - hence the psychological splits, or schizoid type disorders many of us have. I'm trying to work on this now.



Well, I have seen that it becomes toxic in the long term.



Perhaps you could be a bit more analytical with the wording?
Also, what is "real" to the conscious mind is much different to what is real to the subconscious mind.
This goes back directly to the subject of this thread.
What the subconscious perceives can often easily be reasoned away as not real because it has no substance and often cannot be directly linked back to "causality".
Carl Jung describes many of these things in two short books, - one on dreams, and the other on synchronicity.
He also talks about the collective conscious.
Have you read his work? It is old but I find it very interesting and valuable.
You sound to me like you are very much on the same page as Jung.

Maths is too abstract to be visualized. My brain gets in knots and it hurts. Back in the days I would try I never thought it boring as such. More a case of it never made sense to me whereas language did.

In many ways my experiences have been similar to what you describe here.

This Autism thing is extremely complicated and the related co-morbid issues are truly beyond the current state of mental health science, in fully understanding the similar experiences I have experienced that you describe here.

I feel very fortunate to have adapted and to fully feel the bliss of life now.

And truly it wasn't something I analytically planned out in advance per the recovery, as it truly was a creative spirit in me that drove me to it and continues to drive me in it PER WHAT ACTIONS TRULY WORK TO KEEP THE BLISS GOING.

No doubt, it is what SOME folks call the holy spirit BUT creative spirit makes a good enough secular analogy for the same thing to me.

And truly it does seem like a gift, per GRACE, and one could easily call that a higher power of GOD too, per however they define GOD in their life.

Yes, I am saying that our conscious minds do suppress and repress our subconscious minds by way of suppressing and repressing emotions.

What usually happens though is they are replaced by somatic pain to drown them out, and that can come in many forms of disorder, most commonly tension and headaches. But there are almost an unlimited number of other somatic disorders that can come to fruition to replace the emotions with pain.

And then when the emotions are filtered out one can often make pain a reality in their life, by way of tension and other disorder to feel something, anything at all.

This is the reason behind much of self-injury, to feel life at all. People will do almost anything to avoid a numbness of being, including suicide of course.

AS another example other than the Frozen movie, when I was in middle school being raised by an all matriarchal family of loving women, I was extremely emotional and smiled a lot.

In my extreme patriarchal town, the price for a boy smiling was either verbal abuse or physical abuse as homophobia was all the rage then, and still is to a large extent in towns away from the coast of Florida, in general, where I live.

Hate is truly the child of fear, and it is often the fear of young boys that if they express emotion by being around a boy that expresses emotion that they too, will get the 'gay disease', sadly enough.

This crap still goes on, even in 'our' technological Internet age, all over YouTube still, as any band that has males who are graceful or HAPPY GAY, get the 'dreaded gay word' attached to them, which truly is both disgusting and sad that still goes on in A supposedly advanced culture, WHICH TRULY in many ways it still is not.

Science is now beginning to show that both Freud and Jung's human archetypes are real subjective constructs that are built in to the human mind, in a genetic way.

The problem is that these findings are hard to replicate in scientific method way, as they vary so greatly depending on each human being's perception of their own Universe.

I truly doubt there will ever be a real science of the mind.

The Key to me is finding the ART of the mind over the science of it, and that truly is how I have come to balance my mind and body, through the art of physical intelligence through a similar style of ballet and mixed martial arts.

Science now shows the body keeps score in terms of repression, oppression, and subjugation over humans with illusory fear that numbs the 'happy' pro-social emotions.

The result of that is an almost unlimited variety of human disorders that can arise when one lives life like a computer instead of art, in all ways of mechanical cognition, which CAN take one away from the so-called pathway of the brain that is empathy, emotion, and social cognition, which is often driven by physical intelligence, including the balancing of sensory integration.

But anyway, yes, I highly respect Carl Jung's work as he was ahead of time, and science is finally catching up to his insights and eating the words of naysayers, per the genius that was he, as a true visionary of the human mind, in how it ticks well and not so well, too. :)

Interesting. Yeah, I have walked in grace or the holy spirit. But for some reason I felt that was the path of the blue pill. Soma. For all I know that might be the truth. I watched The Big Lebowski a second time recently. I will watch it again since there's a lot packed into it. It seems to me that the various characters in that movie are meant to represent different parts of the mind/soul complex. So you have the dude who is a loser, constantly hanging out with and listening to Walter. You have an encounter with a bowler named Jesus, who Walter says is a pervert. Etc.

The 'Big Lebowski' is one of my favorites. And the directors and writers, the Cohen Brothers, are pure genius when it comes to putting Jungian Human archetypes into the characters of their movies, as well as social human archetypes too.



For example, per social human archetypes, truly through history the archetype of Jesus has evolved to different faces depending on the culture housing the Jesus archetype and myth in general.

And one sees this, as well, with Buddha and Muhammad throughout the historic years, in those respective cultures, as man becomes changing myth instead of flesh and blood, even in the case where there is so much effort, per at least some scholarly records, indicating THIS IS the last thing the potential actual living humans beings are looking to do IN REAL LIFE WHEN THEY ARE LIVING.

In the movie the Matrix, the most challenging and fascinating reality of NEO is that he can change his reality through RELATIVE subjective FREE will. And to me, although one cannot control this thing called the creative spirit or holy spirit by words alone, it can be controlled by a higher power when one allows one's self to work with it, in a kind of intelligence that far surpasses anything that can be described alone in words.

And truly, per my experience when Neo started to change his reality WITH this kind of relative free will, it was of course full of hyperbole THEATRICALLY EXPRESSED to get the point across BUT is truly possible for human beings in a more nuanced way of subjective reality.

For instance, I can change the way I look by imagining it and people used to remark that I could do this chameleon countenance almost all my life but I was not analytically aware of it, as it is a vague ability that words cannot describe alone.

Now that I have the cultural tool of a smart phone for empirical feedback of photos, I can see it in living action, and it is both amazing and even a little scary to me at times, as I can make myself look like an angel or a devil in metaphorical affect and EFFECT IN visual photographic affect and effect without any real conscious effort of physically changing my body, but instead imagining myself being a different character IN A NUANCED WAY.

It scares the hell out of my wife at times, but I for one know that I am simply the director, producer and actor of my own play of life AND IT IS MY RELATIVE FREE WILL THAT MAKES REALITY WHAT IT IS in empirical results, PER this human observable phenomenon, as well.

And truly this is the metaphor of what NEO did in that movie, as he becomes the director, producer and actor of the play of life that is SUBJECTIVE reality, and this is truly a higher power of human that is like the observer effect in Quantum physics but in this case what is deep down that I like to call the self of 'i' CAN IMPACT, AFFECT, AND EFFECT OUR PHYSICAL reality as humans per 'I' of ego in both countenance and view of others.

And in the end of the third and last MATRIX movie when the ORACLE SAYS, 'I BELIEVED'...

THAT MY FRIEND, speaks volumes about what can be the truth in human reality when sought, directed, and played as actor of one's relative FREE WILL.

AND THIS IS THE STUFF that most often GOES RIGHT OVER THE HEAD OF the SO-CALLED architects AND OR SCIENTISTS/'SYSTEMIZERS' of the world.

THE HIGHEST 'order' of human reality CAN BE SUBJECTIVE relative FREE WILL AND THOSE RESULTS ARE LIKE NEO IN TERMS OF HUMAN BEING, in true effect and affect of human reality.

I haven't taken close to five thousands selfies just for the fun of it.

I am seriously capturing empirical evidence, at least in part, that this is a real thing and not just another historical myth.

And yes, it goes far beyond just physical appearance.

And a large part of that subjective experience, I have not yet been able to put into human designed words, and I'm not sure reality as it stands now, allows one to even potentially do that, as perhaps it is a built-in evolved protective measure for survival of the human 'herd' as it stands, as if everyone 'knows' what I do now, which goes far beyond human designed words in the culture I am raised in at least, it could be truly scary if folks used these potential powers of the human mind for nefarious purposes.

More simply put, perhaps some folks are just not evolved to be able to do it, and in Abrahamic religion talk are not the chosen ones.

AND I SUSPECT if there is any cultural niche where one would find a concentrated case study of these individuals it WOULD BE HOLLYWOOD PER ALL THE ART of 'he/sHE' for HeART thriving there.

TRUE Artists have always been the so-called prophets of humanity WHETHER in religion or the so-called secular world of humanity.

There are elements of HUMAN TRUTH IN THE mysteries of what can be human subjective reality, that most religions touch on with their humanly designed abstract concepts of RELIGIOUS language, in general.

And truly religion is just another language for these human subjective realities but of course it is not a perfect science as one cannot come to these human truths through the systemizing way alone that is science.

The Oracle and Architect must become ONE, and that is what the human archetype of Jesus, Buddha, Neo and so many others, even now, in pop culture are who express what seems to be just literal fiction but truly is a subjective reality for humans who attain this type of enlightenment of awakening, as almost all religions describe as potential human subjective truth as exercised and EFFECTED IN REALITY that even others can observe.

'We' now have the potential to measure at least some of it, through modern technology, and where that may lead, is an exciting and CAUTIOUS LEANING prospect, to me at least.

AND of course it is to be expected (AT LEAST BY ME) that 99% percent of the herd here will see all of this as gibberish, but HA! HA! 'NEO KNOWS' 'BETTER'. ;)

SHOULD THAT BE SURPRISING, CONSIDERING the empirically measured systemizing nature of the Autism Spectrum, per the other COHEN guy, Samuel Baron; NO, of course not, and I for one come here for the systemizing of language, not the art of language.

I go to poetry sites for the ART of human language.

Everyone needs a BALANCE FOR FULLER HUMAN POTENTIAL, per NEO like potential. ;)

AND I think you may have the potential to at least understand a substantial part of it, through your real life experiences, as you describe them here, as you do not seem to be imprisoned in the BLUE PILL OF REASON LAND ALONE AS truly without balance of both reason and art, one is 'choking on a BIG blue pill'. :)

And by the way, If you look up the Cohen Brothers, in a Google search, it will list their other movies, as they are definitely worth watching too, in my opinion, per this general theme.

As I said, you are much older than me, so it's quite possible that I don't understand everything that you talk about, that you have more wisdom etc. I listen to everyone and try to follow no one in particular. As for all those things you have said about emotion and some physical intelligence or creative spirit and whatnot, I have experienced influx of creativity almost like a psychedelic drug at some occasions. And I have also experienced a kind of psychopathic mind at times, which quite likely is linked to the synagogue of Satan more than Christ. But Satan might be the light bearer for all I know. I guess you'll find out the day they put a chip in your brain. The search for truth continues...

Jung and Freud's ideas are generally not supported by science. Neither of them cared much for pesky things like facts that might get in the way of their ideas.

Well.. 'they' better have some 'pretty' 'big' 'guns' if 'they' ever plan on putting 'a chip' in my 'brain' as I come FULLY PREPARED IN BOTH WAYS OF INTELLECT AND PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE. :)

AND NOT likely i'll have to use my physical guns.. as WIT is my greatest ally.. IN DEFENSE AND OFFENSE. :)

And you are TRULY smart not to follow anyone but YOUR TRUTH! :)!

I SUGGEST one expand ONE's reading literature to current NEURO-science:

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/april/ ... mund-freud

And what 'should' come as no big surprise in never ever underestimating the POWER OF A REAL 'NEO'. ;)

... have you read that article?

Highlights include "Although many details of Freud’s theories are wrong" and

Jungian archetypes - which sparked this discussion - are one such area where early psychoanalysts were right.

You know what they say about stopped clocks.

DID I SAY ALL OF HIS IDEAS ARE SUPPORTED BY SCIENCE...

No I did not.

My comment and discussion here in this topic is specific to Jungian Archetypes, not psycho-analysis, in general.

And the Jungian archetypes are increasingly being understood as correct by NEUROscience as the article indicates.

AS USUAL here the fight to be right is more important than the pursuit of truth, IN MY OPINION.

And that only amuses me, in fascination, too. :)

I only mentioned Jung.
I find his work extremely interesting because of the fact that he was able to go beyond the limitations and schemas of science to discover very useful information for us all.
It's clearly impossible for our current science to describe a concrete chain of causality for all that happens around us, and especially what happens in our minds.
He allowed his mind to go and explore where most scientists would have remained blind for fear of ridicule or rejection by their peers.
That is a brave and open-minded pursuit of truth.