why such huge veneration of science?

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Thanks.

I'm sold.

@aghogday Not sure why you brought up haters and lovers. Yes, you said you didn't address any particular person. But just to make sure, I'm certainly not a hater, even though I'm very skeptical, and I guess there's a fine line between skepticism or cynicism and hate. Which is a philosophical subject I've been thinking about.

As for all this stuff about emotion, funnily I stumbled across a blog post yesterday when I wasn't even browsing on that subject:

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/12/15/energy-depletion-in-a-human-being/

I found this part especially interesting and relevant to me:

That's kind of how I feel. Might be some kind of Stockholm syndrome, you begin to sympathize with something that wasn't really benefiting you. Even sympathy for the devil perhaps.

As I said, I have been interested in these things, am interested in these things, but I remain skeptical. There are those who say that the spiritual world and the physical world are one and the same and those who say they are separate. I don't know which is true. Why all the Catholic sex abuse for example? If I could strive for something beyond corporeality then that would probably be of greater interest to me than this Dionysus or Isis cult that appears to be in question here.



If I could walk around in some partial out of body experience I think I'd prefer that actually to having a strong degree of interconnection with the physical world, but I don't know for sure. I guess Osiris is more my flavor right now:

I have been thinking a lot about this thing which appears to be some sort of fork in the road, Dionysus/Isis vs Osiris. That appears to be what this passage in the Quran is about:

I have speculated that "Babylon" is what we today refer to as psychosis. When you look at how Islam is very much about preserving the family unit and protecting women etc., the Jewish philosophy seems to be very related to breaking down the family, alienating people. I think this alienation is inevitable. But as I said this is something I've been reflecting on a lot. Here's an interesting video that is relevant to this subject:



Another interesting thing about this is that while both Islam and Judaism are against monasticism, Islam prohibits alcohol while Judaism encourages it. From wikipedia:



I wrote about how I can see Catholicism sliding into Protestantism and further sliding into rave clubs and beyond. To quote the Catholic E Michael Jones in his book A Coney Island of the Mindless:



In this video a rabbi talks about how Christianity will die out:



Here's a book about Jewish influence in Christian reform movement:

http://www.christianjewishlibrary.org/PDF/LCJU_JewishInfluence.pdf

Another clipping from wikipedia:



The search continues.

Regarding my speculations around the concepts psychosis and delusion, I found this article online:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Exile.html

Found the golden oldie


And this is a really good read too



I don't revere or dismiss science but having had the experiences I did had me see the world differently from a very early age. Surely I have huge chunks of my almost 50 year on this planet in a states of dissociation but I've no real regrets. They're only labels to me that serve more of a purpose to the person doing the labelling than they do to me. This is part of another post of mine


Trust is everything. We have more neuroreceptors in our guts than in our brain http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/healt ... d=all&_r=0

It could be argued it is irrational to trust reason over emotion In my case it would make sense. I have tried to overcome the hard-wiring that has it's origins in the traumas of my childhood but turns out it's not meant to be.
So I guess I ultimately decided to put my trust into that what got me through in the beginning

Interesting, thanks.

My interest in Osiris made me order a book on it:

http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Osiris-Ancient-Egyptian-Initiation/dp/1258125803/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420551187&sr=1-1&keywords=The+mysteries+of+Osiris

My reasoning, and gut feeling as well, is that if you're going to reject something at least know what you're rejecting.

I'm a true skeptic on all fronts though. There's this part of me that wants to see the wiring under the board so I smoke more weed then I know is really good for my physical health. But also there's also this part of me that is very analytical at the same time. So for all the thoughts that go through my head if I can't remotely relate them to science I will reject them because in the end science is all we got to explain this thing they call reality.

Edited to add...
I called it reject for lack of a better word. Abandon would've been a better word choiche

I dabbled in all sorts over the years and there is very little I reject as such.
There is a lot though which is just not my cup of tea I suppose and as such I allocate them very little interest value.
Osiris reminds me of Isis and an eccentric Englishman that was well into tarot cards and with whom I lost contact in the end

Excellent post above. I don't expect to meet any 'Spergics here... the parameters are clearly implicitly defined as "you run with current fads or you don't run, no dissention will be tolerated".

My best bet for some interesting conversation is with 'Spergics that don't realise that they're 'Spergics and not with Narcissists that degrade 'spergia by trying to exult themselves into 'Spergics.

Wut?

Ok. To each their own. That's not how I work.

Also, about that article on Babylonian exile. I think it is interesting to speculate whether "Babylon" is what today is known as psychosis, however this part:



I think that there is more to it than simply a fantasy world as some express it. I like the term coined by Robert Anton Wilson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_ontology

David, I really don't think you know what Apsergers is. Perhaps in your need to pigeon-hole everyone you expect your "Spergics" to demonstrate all the traits so overtly that they even show up in text.

I don't know what Oldavid meant. There seems to be a lot of insinuation there. Perhaps I'm not getting it because I haven't read the whole thread. Yeah, maybe I should read the whole thing but I don't know if I want to.

I posted a video with Sam Harris speaking about free will that I thought was very interesting. I didn't see much discussion around that. I find that subject very interesting in the context of this thread, and some of the things I philosophized around it. For example, if people are mostly or more or less completely a product of conditioning, and have little or no free will, then there is a certain kind of meaninglessness to interaction with people I feel. If I speak to people on here and they disagree with the video and some ideas I had for example, that might be totally a product of their conditioning. And all of the thoughts that I'm having, for example right now as I'm writing this, might be totally a product of conditioning. Kind of a prison, which is kind of what I feel like a lot of times.

It's not the thread, tomato. He often seems skeptical of people here claiming Aspergers. We don't fit his pigeon holes.

Ok. I don't know who he was talking about. Myself I don't have a diagnosis. The last psychiatrist I saw said that he thought I might have aspergers and that I could see a specialist psychologist for an evaluation. I quit. I'm not sure what I have myself. Perhaps something of a more psychotic nature. I had a shift in my mind shortly after I quit going to the psychiatrist, so if I had seen him today his assessment might have been different. Also, I don't take psychiatry and their diagnoses as truth, which of course in itself would classify me for another diagnosis. I see their diagnoses as a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, an attempt to feel a sense of certainty and purpose in an uncertain world, trying to grasp onto branches while fumbling in a quagmire of darkness. That could be said about most, if not all, human behavior.

Confirmation bias is a concept that is of very high relevance to this thread.

There is a certain amount of truth in that, in that folks like Mr. Harris and Mr. Dawkins lack the human attribute of full human empathy in not being able to see the importance of emotions like unconditional love.

In fact, they would probably tell you that doesn't exist and is only the first part of a Romantic relationship per the flood of social bonding neurohormones that are part of our evolution to ensure that we survive AS EFFECTIVE potential parents bonding for the care of potential children.

However there IS A Higher kind of 'agape' love when one feels connected to all of the human species and nature that does not allow, for example, Mr. Dawkins to understand the great benefit that a child with Down's syndrome can bring into the world with their smiling love for all others, as love is powerful emotion that motivates humans to creative and productive action with REAL EMPIRICAL RESULTS. So, in having a mind like this, Mr. Dawkins has suggested in the past that if a woman fails at aborting a Down's child that they should try again, as not to would be IMMORAL.

WHEN A PERSON functions like this they do see other folks as some kind of conditioned robot, as they 'SEE' the mind as working as a computer instead of a work OF 'evolving art' in WHAT CAN BE A human using the power of 'DREAMS' TO create their own realities each day, including the ego they present to the rest of the world.

They do not realize there is a self that creates above and beyond ego, as i the self of my I of ego use as metaphor with this 'i' and 'I' to illustrate difference between self and ego.

People who continue to rehash the arguments of others, who work with the facts of others, who dance under the guidelines of the instruction of how others have done it, who play the piano only according to how the lesson that are given to them, and only watch T.V. as a spectator of the play of other folks imagination, simply FAIL TO EXERCISE THEIR OWN RELATIVE FREE WILL to both create their own ego and CREATION ACTIVITY that RESULTS IN SOMETHING truly innovative instead of the REHASH OF WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE.

BUT that's what folks who create something and SELL IT FOR A BUCK DO, they develop structures and guidelines on how to do something and SELL IT TO OTHER FOLKS FOR MATERIALISTIC GOODS, whether it is things or 'money' to buy things.

With TRUE INNATE HUMAN NATURE AS it was evolved for thousands of years, folks create in ways of foraging in creation activity from moving invisibly as art to the successful hunt for prey and escaping unnoticed from predators to the search in foraging for something to eat in gaining subsistence, along with the creation activity of protecting one from the harsh elements of the environment

AND that was also based on oral tradition that constantly changes in creativity instead of book learning that can be STATIC AND DEAD, PER the human potential of developing RELATIVE FREE WILL and truly creating something innovative.

The illusion is humans today think they are smarter than their ancestors before the advent of functionally disabling culture that has taken much of the human potential away from folks for TRUE RELATIVE FREE WILL WHERE they master the art of creativity to survive like their distant ancestors did.

The movie the rise of the planet of the apes ILLUSTRATES THIS POINT well as the humans who live in the city are NO MATCH TO COMPETE ONE ON ONE WITH THE apes who live in the woods who have developed this kind of RELATIVE FREE WILL IN CONTROL OVER THEIR DESTINY.

AND it is because of the 'HUMAN' archetype of the ONE 'APE', Caesar in this case, who saw through the metaphorical lies of HUMAN culture and went HIS OWN way TO DEVELOP HIS OWN RELATIVE FREE WILL leading the other apes to this NEW way of thinking AND CREATING.

Most every super hero, including the myths of the man called Jesus, ARE CENTERED around this basic human archetype of escaping the lies of culture and developing human potential through RELATIVE FREE WILL, in escaping the restrictions of culture that are necessary to keep large groups of humans in line that are not evolved to live in large societies, through subjugating their human nature of creativity with illusory fears of religion AND materialistic collection of wealth as an illusory goal of importance.

Lust, as science shows now, is A core motivating force of all human creativity and productivity, so of course to control people and restrict their activities PER LUST is censored out of life.

But things are changing now and more and more people are escaping the restrictions of culture and developing their own relative free wills to create their ego with self however they may choose for each environment they are in, and for going on their own and truly DOING SOMETHING NEW, or something old again, like what Miley Cyrus did 'swinging from the tree of life naked with FREELY EXPRESSED HUMAN EMOTIONS', IN THE metaphor of the video WRECKING BALL.

ARTISTS use these metaphors of art, to attempt to teach the herd something new or old that they have been taught by culture is BAD BAD BAD to control the potential power and freedom of humans who CAN POTENTIALLY EXERCISE THE GREATEST POWER THAT HUMANS CAN DO, AND THAT is relative free will.

So no, Mr. Dawkins and Mr. Harris may never develop relative free will and MAY continue to rehash the same old tired argument to convince the herd FOR MONEY THAT THEY TOO, ARE ROBOTS/ZOMBIES TOO.

The ONLY way to develop relative free will, is to truly exercise it in doing something a different way than others have done it before.

And in doing so amazing results of human potential can most definitely become the TRUE REALITY IN RELATIVE free will of making CREATIVE dreams come true in REAL WAKING LIFE, instead of the true 'fictional' life that culture CAN BRING to 'us' IN zombie and robot ways of life.

It's a lesson to learn, not a GOD or religion alone, as people have attempted to elevate truly historical humble Yogi-like folks PER historical examples of Jesus and Muhammad, for just two examples, out of potentially millions more, per TRUE SUPER HEROES OF HUMAN BEING who have just found their true human natures once again, like our distant ancestors lived every now of now, without this illusion of past and present recorded in the associations of the artifacts of humans we live and come term as our flesh and blood life, in true effect and affect, as inorganic materials.

And truly any tool of human beings can become an extension of their organic life.

It started with a flesh and blood prehensile thumb and hand with tool of a finger or STICK scratching angles into sand, copying the connections of the stars at night, eventually into the tool of an alphabet through Sanskrit, then the tool of collective intelligence, then complex cultures and increasingly complex tools of complex culture until humankind becomes more the tools than actual flesh and blood humans of times gone past.

But anyway, that's my 'two sense', today.

Off to the casino with my wife, while she gambles and I dance walk free!

@aghogday

Interesting story, as always.

I listen to both you and Harris, and reject neither. Like how I talked in another thread about looking at Nazism without judgment, without emotional attachment. That's how I try to approach it. Hence why I made that argument earlier that you can't be a fighter and a seeker simultaneously, which I don't know if it's correct, but that's what I mean by that; as long as you view Nazism as a problem you'll always have a clouded vision of any potential enlightenment to be found in looking at it. I'm not promoting any ideology, I'm talking in general terms. However, there's something related to this that I have been thinking about a lot, and that is the seeming dialectical nature of enlightenment, whereby fear seems to be necessary for enlightenment, go hand in hand with enlightenment or be a manifestation of undergoing enlightenment or something of that nature. In the world there are countless examples of this, it's capitalism vs socialism, Catholic vs Protestant, Jew vs Gentile, underdog vs establishment, the list goes on. And the search for truth goes on, as usual.