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Intellectual Disability = Autism?!

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Rotter
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04 Aug 2023, 11:04 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
So I'm not saying you don't have a point. Just I'm not understanding why you bring Jill Escher and her kids into it.

I didn't. She did that by herself. I didn't write the article about Jill and her kids. She wrote it herself. It's her own article. She's the author. It clearly says so on the article that she is the author.

I was shocked to see that she even included a photo of her daughter! A photo that clearly shows her daughter's face!! Has she no respect for her own daughter's privacy?

I was also shocked to read that she wants her own children to work in a factory for less than minimum wage!! She wrote in her article:
Jill Escher wrote:
The few jobs that are within the grasp of many adults disabled by autism are under threat of complete elimination. A push to eliminate sub-minimum wage job programs, which offer the only legal avenue to employment for the severely cognitively disabled, means people like my kids will lose their only chance at structured, supported, productive work, and will be pushed even further to the margins of society.


What would you think, MrsPeel, if your own mother wanted you to work in a factory doing stupid mind-numbing repetitive work for less than minimum wage? It would be monstrous, wouldn't it?



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05 Aug 2023, 6:27 am

Rotter wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
You’re simply mixing up public / private and autism diagnoses in older children or adults and severe disability.

Who are you talking about? When you say "you", do you mean yourself? Because that's the impression I get. Projection.


Because you clearly dont know how people get diagnosed in my country, did you not read AsPartOfMe post of long UK waiting lists

viewtopic.php?t=415548

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-66293279

Also:

Quote:
While she has been able to secure an EHCP with full-time support for her son, in the case of her daughter, her private diagnosis was not accepted by the trust, who she said contacted her to say they would do their own assessment.


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Last edited by carlos55 on 05 Aug 2023, 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Aug 2023, 6:32 am

Rotter wrote:
MrsPeel wrote:
So I'm not saying you don't have a point. Just I'm not understanding why you bring Jill Escher and her kids into it.

I didn't. She did that by herself. I didn't write the article about Jill and her kids. She wrote it herself. It's her own article. She's the author. It clearly says so on the article that she is the author.

I was shocked to see that she even included a photo of her daughter! A photo that clearly shows her daughter's face!! Has she no respect for her own daughter's privacy?

I was also shocked to read that she wants her own children to work in a factory for less than minimum wage!! She wrote in her article:
Jill Escher wrote:
The few jobs that are within the grasp of many adults disabled by autism are under threat of complete elimination. A push to eliminate sub-minimum wage job programs, which offer the only legal avenue to employment for the severely cognitively disabled, means people like my kids will lose their only chance at structured, supported, productive work, and will be pushed even further to the margins of society.


What would you think, MrsPeel, if your own mother wanted you to work in a factory doing stupid mind-numbing repetitive work for less than minimum wage? It would be monstrous, wouldn't it?


Her kids assuming they are adults now? need something to do, they are ID so are unlikely to be called up to work on the next Mars mission.

They ideally need a job to keep their brain active, give self worth and respect. Unfortunately increased automation puts many of these slowly disappearing jobs they are only able to do under threat.

Then again they could sit on the sofa all day watching TV gameshows slowly lose their cognition and eventually get heart disease or diabetes


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MatchboxVagabond
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05 Aug 2023, 8:52 am

Rotter wrote:
Jill Escher wrote:
The few jobs that are within the grasp of many adults disabled by autism are under threat of complete elimination. A push to eliminate sub-minimum wage job programs, which offer the only legal avenue to employment for the severely cognitively disabled, means people like my kids will lose their only chance at structured, supported, productive work, and will be pushed even further to the margins of society.


What would you think, MrsPeel, if your own mother wanted you to work in a factory doing stupid mind-numbing repetitive work for less than minimum wage? It would be monstrous, wouldn't it?

That's not a very accurate way of characterizing the situation. And what is your alternative, especially given the likelihood that even if a cure is eventually developed, it's still likely many decades away.

Anybody working one of those jobs is going to be on public benefits anyways, and you make it sound like debtor's prison. The jobs exist to let people who can't work effectively enough to take on a normal entry level job do some work, and the restrictions are such that businesses don't really benefit much by paying such low wages. It's mostly just something to allow these people to have a little bit of human dignity.

I fail to see what alternative there is here other than to have them completely unemployed and pretty much just wasting away.
Rotter wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
and to treat it more as a schizophrenia spectrum disorder despite it often being nigh impossible to distinguish from autism.

Oh no, it sounds like schizophrenia will also be merged into the autism spectrum in future.

The ongoing expansion of the autism spectrum is insane. Nowadays every second man and his dog is allegedly autistic. This sounds like it's a joke or sarcasm, but shockingly there are people seriously discussing their pet's autism. For example:
"How to Tell If Your Cat Has Autism"

The situation was already bad enough with the autism spectrum being expanded to include non-autistic people with intellectual disability. Now the inclusion of pets really highlights the insanity of what is happening. People are so stupid.

And here's the rub, does it even matter. There aren't good diagnostic tools for those that are further away from mean intellectual capacity and they get worse and worse. I fail to see how this scaremongering justifies depriving people of help that so clearly need it.

The whole DSM 5 redefinition was a debacle and the fact that some number of people are misdiagnosed is regrettable, but that's always been the case and likely always will be the case in the absence of a 100% accurate diagnostic procedure.A lot of people were being misdiagnosed with all sorts of crazy things and provided treatments that were completely inappropriate and often times both dangerous and ineffective, are we somehow less important than the concern that somebody might accidentally get autism related treatments? Seems like of elitist and selfish to me.



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05 Aug 2023, 9:14 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
And what is your alternative,

Pay at least the minimum wage.
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
allow these people to have a little bit of human dignity.

There's no dignity in being paid less than the minimum wage while the factory owner gets rich by exploiting vulnerable people.

If you want to give them some dignity, then at least pay the minimum page, but if you really want to give them dignity, then make work totally optional for them. The people who have the most dignity in this brutal society are the people in the upper class who don't have to work at all. Being an exploited employee is the opposite of having dignity. Being an unemployed rich person is having dignity.

It's incredibly selfish of society to force people with a severe intellectual disability to work to survive. They've already suffered enough. It's terrible to make these people suffer even more, in order to allow a factory owner to profit and have a comfortable life at the expense of people with a disability.



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05 Aug 2023, 9:22 am

carlos55 wrote:
you clearly dont know how people get diagnosed in my country

I do know. I explained it twice but you ignored it both times. I won't explain it a third time.



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05 Aug 2023, 10:32 am

Rotter wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
And what is your alternative,

Pay at least the minimum wage.
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
allow these people to have a little bit of human dignity.

There's no dignity in being paid less than the minimum wage while the factory owner gets rich by exploiting vulnerable people.

If you want to give them some dignity, then at least pay the minimum page, but if you really want to give them dignity, then make work totally optional for them. The people who have the most dignity in this brutal society are the people in the upper class who don't have to work at all. Being an exploited employee is the opposite of having dignity. Being an unemployed rich person is having dignity.

It's incredibly selfish of society to force people with a severe intellectual disability to work to survive. They've already suffered enough. It's terrible to make these people suffer even more, in order to allow a factory owner to profit and have a comfortable life at the expense of people with a disability.

Nobody will offer the jobs then. Which is the whole point of those programs. At which point, what precisely do you suggest these people do? At some point, even the most compassionate and generous employer can't afford to have somebody on staff that isn't getting anything done. And having the government pay is more or less the status quo, these people should be getting welfare benefits to cover their essential needs anyways.

I'm not super thrilled about it, but just because people don't have the ability to do a normal, minimum wage, entry level job, doesn't mean that they don't need the other things that come from having a job. This includes things like having somewhere to be, having interactions with coworkers and having done something to contribute. It seems kind of ablist to suggest that only people who can do enough work to earn minimum wage should have jobs, especially when the regulations in place pretty much eliminate any chance for a business to benefit much from offering the reduced wages. It's not that much different from the reduction in minimum wage for younger workers. For the most part, they'd be hard to employ without the ability to pay them a little less.

And BTW, these are not slave labor camps as you're implying. None of these people are forced to work under these conditions, it is a choice and it's pretty disrespectful to suggest that they don't know what's happening.



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05 Aug 2023, 10:47 am

Rotter wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
you clearly dont know how people get diagnosed in my country

I do know. I explained it twice but you ignored it both times. I won't explain it a third time.


You don’t but who cares anyway

Why does it matter what a small island in the N Atlantic does in the world of autism you may ask?

Because in a system like the NHS a Donald Trump can’t just walk into their doctors with a million and ask their kid to be diagnosed next week or influence the diagnosis.

Sure they can pay private but it’s meaningless because it’s generally not respected officially and doesn’t go on any government statistics about autism

So check the % of ID in the UK and compare to % of ID in the US.

If it’s approx the same then that completely debunks your shopping around theory having an impact on proportion of ID autistics

I believe the stats are approx uniform in most western countries last time I read.

What’s more autism diagnosis itself in N Island ( part of UK) is very high.


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Last edited by carlos55 on 05 Aug 2023, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Aug 2023, 10:49 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Nobody will offer the jobs then.

The USA government can very easily afford to pay for it, even if the government pays 100% of it. The amount of money that the USA government spends on war and other bad things is extreme and obscene. Governments should be putting money into ethical things such as education and healthcare, not spending most of the taxpayer's money in highly inappropriate ways. In the USA, the #1 largest usage of taxpayer's money is indeed the military. That's obscene. And now you want poor people with intellectual disabilities to work like slaves to survive, and get paid even less than minimum wage?! That's unethical and abusive.



Last edited by Rotter on 05 Aug 2023, 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Aug 2023, 10:50 am

carlos55 wrote:
that completely debunks your shopping around theory having an impact on proportion of ID autistics

Not at all. I already explained this in detail. I won't explain it again.



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05 Aug 2023, 11:52 am

Rotter wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Nobody will offer the jobs then.

The USA government can very easily afford to pay for it, even if the government pays 100% of it. The amount of money that the USA government spends on war and other bad things is extreme and obscene. Governments should be putting money into ethical things such as education and healthcare, not spending most of the taxpayer's money in highly inappropriate ways. In the USA, the #1 largest usage of taxpayer's money is indeed the military. That's obscene. And now you want poor people with intellectual disabilities to work like slaves to survive, and get paid even less than minimum wage?! That's unethical and abusive.

They can, but how is that any different from the status quo where there's disability payments and welfare benefits? I don't object to giving those that need the help a hand, but the money doesn't fill the other needs that these programs cover.

I did have the same feelings when I first heard about these programs, but the reality of them is not what you're portraying. Nobody is supporting themselves on these jobs, nor is it intended for them to. The restrictions on which employees are even eligible ensures that anybody that can hold a normal job wouldn't be eligible anyways.



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06 Aug 2023, 4:53 am

Leaving aside the doubtful conspiracies of parents wanting their ID child diagnosed with autism for social status.

The simple reason for the association of ID to autism as discussed on WP a million times over the years is the expansion and merger of what was once called autism, plus PDD-NOS and Asperger's

The same genes for what was once classic autism are also linked to intelligence especially in what was the original diagnosis of autism. Back in the 1980`s for example 69% of autistics were ID.(Link)

Quote:
Twenty-one remaining cases in the newly identified group had no IQ estimate. However, a review of their files indicated that mental retardation was clinically diagnosed or suspected in all but 4 cases. Thus, in total, 69 % of our sample (original and newly identified cases) had an IQ or clinical estimate in the intellectually impaired range.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 67195/#R24

As the autism diagnosis expanded and merged into AS you suddenly got people of normal intelligence who were able to advocate for themselves saying "who are these other people who are ID they don't have what i have, there`re not autistic"

These other people, many were the original autistics who`s condition was merged with theirs, who were more likely to have entwined ID & autism.

This has become worse in recent years with the trivialising of the condition, non diagnosed celebrities claiming they have autism and efforts to create some sort of "autistic identity".

Naturally those who want an identity want a "positive one" so they`ll be naturally trying to expel or de-diagnose those that drag them down in an effort to create a kind of pure benevolent form of the condition that they can claim is a different type of human as opposed to a negative disorder.


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06 Aug 2023, 7:12 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:
I did have the same feelings when I first heard about these programs, but the reality of them is not what you're portraying.

They may be different in different countries. I don't know where you live, but in the country where I live, people with intellectual disabilities are pressured to work (against their will) in factories, and they're paid less than the minimum wage. The type of work they're forced to do is, for example, assembling ballpoint pens every day for months or years.

It's terribly abusive. Nevertheless a lot of normal people here claim that this factory work gives "human dignity" to people with intellectual disabilities. BS, total BS. It's the opposite of dignity. It's discrimination, exploitation, and abuse of vulnerable people.

This sounds like I live in a third-world country, but no, I live in a first-world country. All countries are brutal. First-world countries are merely less brutal than third-world countries.



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06 Aug 2023, 7:28 am

I still do not get it.

Autistic or not, the needs of those with intellectual disability are different from those who don't.

Simple as that.

There are intellectually disabled autistics, there are intellectually disabled allistics.

With needs different from autistics without intellectual disability, needs different from any allistics without intellectual disability.

An autistic has different needs from allistics, as do NTs from NDs, and that's just one dimension or factor to consider in an individual.

To say autism is intellectually disability is like saying all neurodivergence is autism. It's ridiculous.


Why can't people comprehend this?

Why keep encroaching the label autism over the premise of intellectual disability?
Why deny the factor of intellectual disability and claim all of it's deficits are all coming the severity of autism?

That's like saying an autistic's constant dysregulation is all intellectual disability.
The constant dysregulation translates to constant dysfunction that influences cognition -- yet is mistaken for intellectual capacity and comprehension.

Then when the person stops being dysregulated, and therefore more functioning, suddenly they're "more NT"? Huh. :jester:
That's not how intellectual disability works. And that person is still autistic.

As for the intellectually disabled...
Dysregulation or not, or even all the mental and emotional health influences are all in ideal states -- remains intellectually disabled.

One doesn't stim away, be put on meds and be put in a sensory safe place to 'mitigate intellectual disability'. :roll:


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06 Aug 2023, 7:54 am

Edna3362 wrote:
Why can't people comprehend this?

Because they don't want to comprehend it, because they're selfish or have an ulterior motive. A lot of people (especially neurotypicals) express non-credible arguments to support their ulterior motive. For example, someone buys a packet of coffee beans that was produced with child labor in a third-world country. This person enjoys the cheap price. He or she wants to continue purchasing and enjoying coffee at a cheap price thanks to child labor. However he/she does not want to feel guilty about it. Therefore he/she denies that child labor was involved, even after seeing concrete evidence of child labor. Alternatively he/she acknowledges the child labor but downplays it and dishonestly says the children are treated well.

Another example: A parent wants more free time for himself/herself, but his/her free time is reduced by the time taken to care for his/her child with intellectual disability. Therefore, to get rid of the child and give the parent more free time, the parent claims that the child should work in a factory for less than the minimum wage, in order to give the child "dignity". Thus the selfish parent lies to himself/herself and lies to everyone else as well, in order to get what he/she wants for himself/herself.

Next a selfish parent makes excuses such as saying, "But my child is now an adult. It's not child labor."
However, the next day, the parent says something contradictory, such as acknowledging that although the child is now an adult, the adult child has a severe intellectual disability that causes him/her to be forever stuck in the mental development level of a child. Thus the child has an adult body but the mind of a child. Nevertheless the selfish parent wants free time, so the parent gets rid of the child by claiming that factory work is "dignified", even when it's less than the minimum wage.



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06 Aug 2023, 9:03 am

Rotter wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
I did have the same feelings when I first heard about these programs, but the reality of them is not what you're portraying.

They may be different in different countries. I don't know where you live, but in the country where I live, people with intellectual disabilities are pressured to work (against their will) in factories, and they're paid less than the minimum wage. The type of work they're forced to do is, for example, assembling ballpoint pens every day for months or years.

It's terribly abusive. Nevertheless a lot of normal people here claim that this factory work gives "human dignity" to people with intellectual disabilities. BS, total BS. It's the opposite of dignity. It's discrimination, exploitation, and abuse of vulnerable people.

This sounds like I live in a third-world country, but no, I live in a first-world country. All countries are brutal. First-world countries are merely less brutal than third-world countries.

Then why are you referring to the US? Because it is absolutely not like that in the US, and developing world countries are brutal in a lot of ways that wouldn't be acceptable with a developed country, just because there's fewer resources and investible capital in general to avoid it. The same was true in pretty much all the developed countries.

If you want to talk about some developing country or emergent economy, that's one thing, but those countries also often have a ton of people working in dangerous and under regulated jobs in general with fewer resources to support the disabled. But, even there, it's probably not accurate the way that you're portraying it. For example, China does a fair amount to set people up as cobblers and masseuses as a way of dealing with the disabled. It's hardly a perfect country for so many reasons, but it's not like these countries aren't trying to avoid the sort of situation that you're referring to.