Could you be loved?

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@Asp-Z, I don't think @CrinklyCrustacean meant to imply that parenting results in complete obedience or anything. I think that when children act out is when parents are most challenged, and when they have to be their most creative (to correct the child's behavior without damaging him/her).

@Thom_Fuleri, I do totally agree with @CrinklyCrustacean on this one. I think parents have huge influence regarding how a child develops. Even if you look at just the basics: proper nutrition, safety, medical attention, etc. - quality of care makes a huge difference. When you look at the "other" basics: love, effective discipline, involvement in education, exposure to art, sports, music, culture....the impact is equally huge. When I compare the person my daughter is to her biological half-sibs (most of whom were raised by the woman who gave birth to my daughter) - the difference is stunning. And I don't think that's because I'm such an amazing parent - but I have been able to provide the "basics" for my child, and IMO, that's made all the difference.

It is easy to break something. It is much harder to create it. Any fool can raise a social misfit - but how do you create a doctor, or a lawyer, or a sports star, or a musician, or a top rate stage performer? Many parents try to do these things and it very rarely works.

I agree insofar as a decent background has an impact. But to suggest that we actually create children is farcical. The children create themselves. We can direct them, shape them somewhat, give them every advantage and remove what obstacles we can, but we cannot ever control their destiny without breaking them.

We can divert the course of a river, but we cannot make it flow uphill.

But we're not talking about creating a child (at least I'm not talking about biology here). I think there's a misunderstanding, here. I don't think that a parent can control what a child becomes, e.g., doctor, lawyer, musician, athlete, etc. But a parent can certainly give their child the values, skills and tools that will help them achieve their own life's goals.

For example, my parents valued education. I was probably ten years old by the time I realized that not everyone went to college - that's how much my parents drilled into me the idea that, "When you graduate high school, it's on to college. When you graduate college...." Valuing education goes a long way toward creating a doctor, lawyer, educator, etc. Natural talent, I'm sure, has a lot more to do with creating athletes and musicians, but as a parent, you absolutely can encourage your child's interests. For example, my daughter is really musical. She bugged me for a piano, I got her one, and now she's taking lessons. Will she develop that talent into an avocation? Maybe. Will that talent go from avocation to vocation? I don't know - it depends on what she's willing to do. Ultimately, it's her life and she's got to live it, so she's got to figure out what's going to make her happy.

We were...



Making a person has no net worth. That's like typing a load of random letters and saying you wrote a novel.

Making a *good* person is impressive, but we really can't control that!

I give this sentimental clap trap a big ho hum. So you engaged in an single physical act with set in motion a series of automated events that resulted a person nine months later? I'm reminded of The Onion's fine article which says, "Miracle of Birth Happens for the 15 Billionth Time." In other words, big freaking deal. To my friends who constantly brag about how special their babies are, they aren't. Not yet.

Anybody (by which I mean with normatively function sexual organs) can create a person. Rarer is the parent(s) who can keep their sh*t together long enough to raise a person worthy of merit. Frankly, birthing is the smallest part of the whole process, and one I find bestial (though necessary), and a remaining byproduct of our animalistic tendencies.

As for the notion that it is the most important act, the most creative, I say BULL. Did you arrange the child's chromosomes, and plan the various mutations and combinations of dominant and recessive traits? Nope. All random, which for me is the OPPOSITE of creativity. Not to mention if anyone can do it, it's frankly not that special.

I have far more respect for the creative artisans, who perhaps forsake the temptations of normal domesticity to create something more lasting. Because when you die, and your kids after you, who will remember you existed, mattered? No one, really. Far fewer have crafted paintings, operas, buildings, motion pictures, and fewer still have made lasting ones. THAT is special. They shall be remembered.

Forgive my harshness, but it pisses me off when people toot their horns about the beauty of birthing and how it's a miracle. It ain't. It's self important bullsh*t.

@Brianruns10, AngleRho was talking about having and raising a child as being a highly creative endeavor. Since you've never been pregnant, I suppose you don't understand that pregnancy is not a "series of automated events" at all. It actually takes quite a bit of hard work to bring a healthy child into the world. Perhaps when you have the opportunity to support a woman throughout a pregnancy and delivery, you'll have a more in-depth understanding of the effort involved.

Unfortunately, I don't think I will "forgive" your harshness, because there's no reason for it. You're entitled to your opinion, although it seems to be an opinion that's not based on experience (as you're not a parent, and I'm assuming you haven't created paintings, operas, buildings, motion pictures, etc.). It's simply unnecessary to put down AngelRho's opinion as "self-important bullsh!t" - you can disagree with her without being insulting.

Could I be loved?

It's not a question I feel I can answer.

Only a partner that I am willing to trust whole heartily can answer that question.

Though I guess if I never find such a partner then the answer would be a obvious "No".

You assumed wrong. I studied painting in my youth, and supported myself in college by writing historical papers, while studying history and later cinema. I completed my first feature film, as well as several prize winning shorts by 21. I'm 25 now, and in the last year completed my fifth and sixth features, the former which will be screening at the new AMC theatre in my home city this month, and the latter which will be on PBS later this year. As a hobby, I do stop motion animation, and I work as a cinematographer...I paint with light.

So I draw upon a lot of experience, and my previous post was in response to the arrogance I seen in a lot of parents who somehow regard what they do to somehow be the MOST special thing there is. It's nothing special to have kids, and only special of the parent can raise them right. Even then, that isn't the end all and be all to contribute to society, and I hate when people suggest there is something wrong if you don't want to have children. I will never have kids, because I don't want to pass on what I've got to them, or even worse. Instead, I plan to keep on contributing as I have, and that is just as meritorious as having kids.

And I didn't ask for your forgiveness, only of AngelRho, so none is required.

Don't mind BrianRuns, he made his comments out of bitterness.

We've got two very different ideas here of what the word "creative" means. I think both are valid in the right context, and society needs creativity on all sorts of levels to thrive. There is no point to trying to figure out which has the most value, because we NEED BOTH.

I will agree with Brian on one point...I hate when parents brag about their newborn and act like they've just done something no one else has done. I have no problem with parents being proud of their children after raising them and their children turned into decent people.

out of interest how do you think parents of disabled children should feel or parents of 'low achievers'?

big difference between disabled and low achievers...is the person a low achiever because of lack of potential, or because he or she is lazy or a bad person (got into the drug scene, or is a bully, etc.)?

I know there is a big difference I was asking your opinion on both, not clasifying them together.

What I meant by "decent person" wasn't their production and accomplishments, I meant who they are on the inside. I know plenty of people my age that are college graduates, have good jobs, etc., but are horrible people.