Can't stand the mystery of my brain anymore!

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I don't know how much longer I can tolerate living with all these things
about my brain which don't add up. Most people here agree that IQ
measure one's academic potential and that's about it. I understand that
IQ tests are of even less predictive value for people who exhibit alot of
"scatter" on them. IQ tests are unreliabe indicators of even one's academic
capacity for reasons i'll mention here and likely many more.

Still..... countless people with AS/NVLD exhibit alot of
scatter on their IQ tests. So why exactly am I so poor at academic
subjects involving even basic math and science? I might not have the
stellar IQ scores (in terms of FSIQ, VIQ and PIQ) that many here have
(though I obtained an FSIQ score of 143 on the last test I had with
VIQ at 155 and PIQ at 111) but there are plenty of Aspies/NLD-ers
whose overall scores are even significantly LOWER than mine who
excel at math and science. Many of these same individual's
subtest patterns are similar to my own as well. They do poorly on block design
and object assembly subtests on PIQ and very well on most, if not all, of the
verbal subtests.

I just can't even begin to imagine what the difference between myself and fellow Aspies/NLD-ers like this are. NOTHING on my neuropsych evals indicates any difference at all. My memory scores are all average or better, including working memory.


My processing speed is within normal ranges, and my executive functioning issues don't seem much different than those alot of AS/NVLD folks deal with. I don't have any significant issues with attention/concentration according to these tests either. While I do feel I have some VERY severe long-term memory deficits which have thus far eluded any psychometric tests of memory, i'm not actually referring to memory here. I'm referring to my seemingly nonexistent ability to INITIALLY COMPREHEND any math beyond pre-algebra and any science beyond basic biology and physical science. Forget about whether I remember any of it in a week's time or not.

Since good math and visual-spatial abilites are required, I can't even begin to comprehend science courses like chemistry, physics and astronomy. But again... plenty of other NLD-ers/Aspies don't appear to have anymore aptitude for math/science than I do according to EVERYTHING, I repeat, EVERYTHING on their neuropsychological evaluations. which supposedly measures one's potential in those areas. And of course....computers are another thing I know nothing about.


Could it be that many other Aspies/NVLD-ers score perform as poorly, and sometimes worse, than myself on subtests like block design/object assembly for
reasons that have nothing to do with their ultimate ability for the type of things
these tests are supposed to measure? Could it be that I perform poorly on them
because they're actually an accurate measurement of my aptitude at the sort of
skills they're designed to measure? In other words...maybe many Aspies/NLD-ers
perform poorly on the for reasons having to do with attention/concentration, executive functioning, working memory, processing speed, sensory or perceptual problems, etc.....and NOT their actual cognitive/intellectual capacity. Maybe, for example, their
block design subtest scores would increase substantially if they learned to somehow
work around or compensate for their attention/concentration, working memory, processing speed, etc.....deficits. Depression, anxiety, boredom, etc....can also result in a
"false low/negative" score on any given subtest either when coupled with the aforementioned factors or in isolation from them.

If that's the case....then why don't these problems seem to hinder them much when it comes to their performance at math and science in SCHOOL? I can't imagine i'm the only Aspie/NLD-er who DOESN'T have any significant problems in the aforementioned areas.
Again...while I have SOME problems with executive functioning, they don't seem unusual at all for Aspies/NLD-ers. I DO NOT have any substantial issues with all the other things I mentioned according all my neuropsych evals. And sure I have problems with depression and anxiety....but I really wasn't suffering from any major depression or anxiety when I was in college and I STILL couldn't grasp math or science to save my life.

I've encountered SO MANY over the years (online and in books only mind you) whose subtest scores and patterns are almost EXACTLY the same as mine, it's not even funny.
And again...many of these same NLD-ers/Aspies seem to have an infinitely greater aptitude for math/science than I do. You can't tell me they ALL have such serious issues with attention/concentration, working memory, exe functioning, depression, etc....That is...serious enough to account for "false negative/low" scores on the block design subtest or something. To my mind, this would almost imply that there's no such thing as a "pure" form of nonverbal learning disability at all. After all...if the only reason one performs poorly on a block design test or something has to do with *ancillary* issues like working memory, executive functioning, processing speed or attention/concentration, then none of these things have anything to do with *pure* cognitive/intellectual capacity whatever that ultimately entails. I guess what i'm trying to determine here is when does a low score on any given IQ subtest provide an accurate indication of one's ultimate and final capacity for things these tests are supposedly designed to measure? What if one enjoys complete freedom from working memory, processing speed, sensory/perceptual,
attention/concentration, etc....deficits (as well as equal *freedom* from depression, anxiety, boredom, etc...) and STILL manages to perform poorly on any given IQ subtest?

What does that say about an individual? Should they just stop trying to succeed at math and science course because they're *defacto* mentally ret*d in those areas? At what point do you just give up? After you've had to drop introductory algebra twice? Five times? Ten? After you've worked with a tutor for exactly what period of time? After you've tried 10 different "math for dummies"-type books and none of them helped should you try five more? Now I AM exaggerating here. I've taken intro algebra twice in college and dropped both times. I never worked with a tutor and never utilized any "math for dummies" books either. I just tried to grasp it on my own straight from the text and crashed and burned like a Japanese zero. It just seemed like I could barely grasp the basics so I didn't think i'd ever be able to do any better no matter how much tutoring I received and/or how many math for dummies books I turned to. The frustration I feel due to all this ALONE seems like enough to obliterate all infinity if frustration could be weaponized. By the way....this is not to say there are NO Aspies/NLD-ers within my IQ ranges and subtest patterns who are not as weak at math/science as I am. All i'd like to know is what EXACTLY differentiates Aspie/NLD-er *A* who scores FSIQ=116/VIQ=127/PIQ=102 and is terrible at math/science and Aspie/NLD-er *B* with the same exact scores who is great at math/science???

Some configuration of two or more of the factors I mentioned? Something I failed to mention?

just a jejune thought for ya, sorry i can't offer anything more- this said, have you read of jamie escalante ["stand and deliver"]? he was a math teacher who recognized that everybody has different learning styles, and stepped outside of the regular math curriculum long enough to impart on his math-challenged students enough of the basics so as to take it the rest of the way themselves. with this in mind, i can't believe there is only one way to learn any subject, including maths- you may have to find somebody who can help you find your own best way of learning this subject.
btw, i am hopeless when it comes to maths and logic.

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Well apparently my abilities are fairly spot on as far as people with AS go.

Though perhaps I lean a little more to the left of the spectrum on some non-verbal things.

IQ/Performance tests certainly do have their shortcomings though and will fail to accurately gauge the abilities of a certain percentage of individuals so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Few people are good at physics. In fact people who are good at mathematics tend to struggle with physics, and most physicists aren't the best mathematicians in the world.

When we don't understand something it's usually due to one of two reasons.
Either is was not explained to us in the way we need it to be explained to understand it, or we really do not have much aptitude for it for one reason or another.

But in most individuals, every neurological weakness is a weakness due to a neurological strength.

I go to a special school. We study software and database management. Sometimes there are problems with certain students in our class, including me. I am sure some of them have also Asperger's syndrome. Some have memory problems and some sight problems. They are intelligent for sure but they say that they do not understand and teacher is too fast. We are all taught the same way - Teacher in front of the class quickly showing us how to do certain exercises or tasks. She thinks that everyone can study the same. And if not, then we are dumb and will drop out. I was good at first because there was repetition of earlier class maths but there it all went downhill because she took new exercises i had never seen. She was fast and she cannot even hear the pupils when they ask for help because she has ear problems. She is too old(over 80)? Some say that they should replace the teacher. She doesn't seem to see us as individuals with different disabilities. All she is good at is her math and physics. Maybe the learning would be better if we were taught different in the ways it is easier for us. Maybe the teachers would be better if the school system was different? Why do we always have to be put in the same pot? Special school or what?

I am going to drop out soon. i guess i am too "ret*d" to succeed in this. Of course i have other problems too. I am thinking of never going to school again. Work and society stuff does not interest me that much. It makes me depressed to be in it.


(Very sorry for bad English)

I've heard of Escalante..but i'm not very familiar with him or his style of teaching. I'm actually really worried about all this now because i'm planning to go back to college in January at the ripe old age of 41.


I have an AA degree in liberal arts and I took course substitions for the math requirements. I am bound and determined to make up the math at least to college algebra. I'd like to major in psychology and will require S & P as well. Unless I plan on grad school...a mere BA/BS in psych probably won't help me get get hired at Burger King of course. But it IS one of my major interests insofar as anything academic and i'm planning on doing this as much for my own self-edification as any career opportunities it might afford me. I'd likely be at least 47 by the time I made it out of grad school. That said....I STILL don't know what I want to do when I grow up. I might just opt for the practical route (and for me....the path of least resistance since paralegal courses involve zero math/science) and get a paralegal certificate or something. But i'd TRULY despise both the coursework and I can't envision myself EVER working as a paralegal. In any case...i've got some decisions to make and I need to make them soon if I want to start classes in Jan. I was hopeless too in the logic course I took in college. I passed, but with a C and I the only reason I pulled that much off is because I got lucky on exams.

I did VERY well in history, psychology, sociology, english and just about any course without a math/science/*formal* logic component. But....that's where the potential long term memory issues rear their ugly head. Sure I smoked the exams without even much studying. But that's likely because exams serve as a "cue" or "trigger" for memory.


I don't know if i'd ever remember enough about history or sociology to ever make a career (most likely a teaching career which i'd probably epic fail at anyway due to my social deficits) of it though. All I know is I HOPE i've somehow been exaggerating my learning/memory problems all my life. And if so.....I hope I can somehow learn to *unexaggerate* them. I know that at least the learning problems themselves aren't entirely imagined, but I may have blown them way out of proportion. As crazy as that sounds, it doesn't seem like it's outside the realm of possibility to me. The memory problems on the other hand...I freely admit they might be nothing more than a product of my own tortured imagination. They are certainly not an intentional or conscious product of it and they seem very, very real to me.

I'm hoping to find out more about my brain and it's discontents very soon here. OVR is sending me for yet another neuropsych eval for one thing (i've had five full psych evals and an additional IQ test in my life) and while that in itself probably won't tell me much more than all the others have, i'm going in "armed to the teeth" so to speak. That is....I have alot more insight and information now then I did 4 years ago when I had my last neuropsych eval. At least partially based on this...i'm hoping to convince the psychologist who administers the tests that I need to have an MRI and/or some other type of neuroimaging. If he/she recommends one in the report they send back to OVR, my OVR case worker already told me they may be able to cover the costs of it. Also...i'm trying to get into the autism research study at the University of Pittsburgh and the study includes at least one MRI. I'm not sure if any MRI I receive there would tell me anything about my possible memory problems per se...but it's worth a shot. Much of my immediate family lives in Pittsburgh anyway so travel expenses and lodging wouldn't be a concern.

Or maybe....at this rather late hour in my life....I should just admit i'm stupid and will never to amount to anything more than a grocery bagger. I am fully aware of the fact that i'm likely engaging in a monstrous amount of self-deception, pipe dreaming and wishful thinking here. I must sound like a total megalomaniac or something to most of you people. And when i'm on the outside of myself looking in...that's exactly how I sound. Nevertheless and notwithstanding....i'm not ready to give hope yet....if only the hope of an insufferable fool.

Stupidity is one thing I could never accept about MYSELF. As horrible as this may sound....I think i'd have an easier time accepting being Adolph Hitler. He seemed quite content with himself....far too content in fact. I'm not saying i'd trade places with him (though god knows intelligence and knowledge means so damn much to me i'd be tempted to do so)...but i'll bet he was infinitely more comfortable in his own skin than I am.


This is coming from an atheist jew by the way and believe me, I hate myself for feeling this way and it horrifies me to no end. Still.... intelligence, knowledge, skills, and talents have always represented life's pearl of the greatest price to me. Anyone can tell me why such things shouldn't be so important , but it just falls on deaf ears. The individual is their own god and gods determine their own priorities. I don't seek power over any other living soul....only power and mastery over my own brain and the course of my life. Considering there's so many people in this world who can "do anything they put their minds to", I don't see why that's too much to ask. As i've always said...my spirit for learning is unspeakably strong.....but the flesh of my brain seems very, very weak. I feel I have nothing to lose by attempting every means necessary to rid myself, if only partially, of this weakness until my dying day. Aside from traveling and enjoying the splendor of nature......learning everything and anything I can is one of the few things truly worth doing in life.

the fact that you are worrying about doing the right things means you are on the right track for you. i myself no longer worry about "doing the right thing" as opposed to just surviving from day to day.
you spoke of being a paralegal- one interesting thing is that in many states, if you work full-time as a paralegal for a period ranging from 5-10 years, you can then [with sponsorship from an attorney in your firm] challenge the state bar exam and directly become a lawyer yourself. just a thought. plus a BA in psych will help you be a more effective lawyer, in terms of a "theory of mind" perspective on your clients.
you are still younger than me by far, so you still have sufficient time to make of your life what you will. but remember, even a grocery bagger is still a more advanced status than many people have achieved, including myself [i am an unemployed hermit, and unemployable].
you mention AH in the same paragraph as "being comfortable in his own skin" - many sociopaths and other nasty pieces of work are quite comfortable in their own skin" even as they make the lives of others around them quite uncomfortable. you might consider that if you are on the side of the angels [IOW your heart is in the right place, one of being a loving, giving person], that would be the best way to be comfortable in one's own skin. this is ultimately more important than worldly knowledge and earthly power [intellectual or otherwise]. worldly goods are overrated, in the grand scheme of things. as an "atheistic jew" you might find that hard to take, but i believe it will dawn on you as you grow old.
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just my 2-cents' worth, adjusted for inflation

I have a shite IQ- 91, but they didnt test using IQs at my school, they used standardised testing which I must score reasonably high at- I was in the most academically gifted class despite my poor processing speed and poor focus. I went to university and got a degree in biology- all whilst having an IQ of 91.

So dont worry about IQs. Some people with slow processing brain speeds dont perform well at them despite having good abilties in some areas.

Well.....maybe i'll add a few more comments to this tomorrow....it's 4:37am here and i'm losing steam.


Considering that you said "and other such nasty pieces of work" you seem to realize that Hitler may not have been a bona fide sociopath after all.

Alot of people just assume that he was. In fact...a non-sociopath Hitler might even be more scary and "evil"

Sociopaths don't even have a conscience. Hitler may have had one and he just didn't bother listening to it. This is somewhat akin to Hanna Arendt's "Banality of evil" concept. The horrifying thing is that Adolph Eichmann likely had a conscience too. Just like the human guinea pigs of Milgram and Zimbardo.

But that was one of the fundamental points in my OP.


I DON'T have slow processing speed and while I perform reasonably well ( well in line with countless other aspies/NLD-ers) on the IQ tests....I suck royal eggs at math, science, logic and mechanical reasoning in the real world.

So your own situation is diametrically opposite of my own. Tell you what....you can take the 143 on my last IQ test and i'll take your 91 so long as I can have your degree in biology.

Doesn't math come under verbal? Is there any specific reason why you have problems with math?

I know I have problems when the equations become too long, like Pythagoras' theorem, or when I don't actually know the equations because I couldn't initiate the task of getting out the book from the library and studying on my own. Other than that though, I can get by (not that I actually did well in math post grade 7, but I didn't do well in any subject post grade 7, but I don't care about that).

Find the problem, figure out how to fix it/work around it, and if you can't do that, work on another area.

Most of the questions about the results of measurement tests for skills and intelligence are answered when you study psychological testing and measurement theory. The two basic concepts about testing involve validity and objectivity, and these two things are determined with the mathematics of statistics. Inferential statistics is just a fancy name for probability theory, descriptive statistics is arithmetic, probability theory relies on the notion of randomness, and the notion of randomness is self-contradictory, so watch out for the requirement of having to be a true-believer in beliefs that match the professor's.

Most of the "things" measured by skills and psychological tests don't exist, as they are statistical constructs. In physics, when new constructs are needed as a tool or a concept for convenience, categorical mathematics uses the technique called "functor" creation to simply create the mathematical entity (for instance, imaginary numbers make doing the arithematic in electrical engineering real easy, and if you really believe, gives a sense of understanding something that isn't really there).

Mathematics and physics are basically the same things. Social Bureaucrats seperated it into two concepts so they could walk into different offices instead of just get along with each other. Often mathematics is split into multiple subjects too. Everybody wonders why most advanced calculus books include the proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra because of this needless tendency to split everything up for more offices to be required.

The most valid and objective test are ones of multiple choice questions and direct numerical answers. Timing the tests reduces the validity and objectivity of the tests, but most people are true believers in speed being of utmost importance. These types of tests, when the tests are poorly designed, are easily analyzed for the detection of discrimination that is otherwise prohibited. To avoid the trouble of designing a strongly valid and objective test, subjective tests are often used instead. Subjective tests have very low validity and objectivity, but this very problem makes it difficult to prove that the subjective test is discriminatory.

Subjective test subjects often come with the claim that they come with concepts that can't be reduced to numbers (while they result in a numerical ranked score for the student), and yet everything that comes over the internet and/or is on computers are just a long series of "0's" and "1's," which seems to be just binary numbers. Previous generations of people complained that behavioural psychology was "reductionist." Now the complaint is made using the number 10011101, which is the epitome of reduction.

Tadzio

I quite definitely suck at maths and science. The one paper I failed at Universty was this stupid computer/calculus horror in my last year. The only reason I got the degree is my interest in theoretical knowledge.

I pretty much tried to memorise all the theory at school but when it came to labs, computer operating, mathmatical formulae I fell down badly. I slept through all the genetics lectures which talked about all the mathematical aspects of genetics, and luckily I could get away with taking statistics papers instead of calc because calc wasnt required for the particular degree I was doing.

The only reason i passed biochemistry was the timely find of a book called The Biochemistry Songbook, I went into the exam with ridiculous songs in my head about cell respiration.

Anyway I think you may get the picture i am not a maths/science genius. i have a huge interest in science but I dont have the brain type to be a scientist.

I feel ya, man.

I'm great at science, but only because I love it so much that I work at it. I can't do physics at all, and I struggle with chemistry, all because of the math thing you're talking about.

I'm pretty sure I have dyslexia but with numbers (I don't remember what it's called, dyscalcula?).
I've read many accounts of it, and it definitely rings a bell with me.
I don't think of numbers as value or meaning, I can only think of them as a picture, a letter. So I can only do the most basic of equations in my head: addition and subtraction with 1 digit numbers, maybe 2 digits on a good day. I can only do multiplication because I'm memorized some of my times tables (I know 9 x 9 = 81 because of an old arthur episode I saw as a child, for example).
Even 1 digit addition takes time for me, because numbers aren't a value. If I'm presented with 7 + 3, I solve it the same way I would sing the alphabet to remember which letter comes next. I count on my fingers, "ok 7...8...9...10." So 7 + 3 = 10.
I didn't realize that this isn't the way everyone else does math until honestly only a couple weeks ago. I was talking about my troubles in math with a friend, and she explained that she can calculate numbers because numbers are numbers, not letters. I didn't even know what she meant!

It's not that I'm dumb, I've very smart in most other areas, so for my whole life teachers, peers, even my mother, have been angry with me about not being able to do math. They seem to think I'm not trying hard enough, because I excel in other areas. People always tell me, "You'd be good at math if you applied yourself; you have a math brain!" Which I eventually learned is their way of saying, "I don't know why you're bad at math; you're smart!"

Smart =/= math ability, sadly enough.

Certain aspects of mathematical ability would relate to verbal IQ yes. The "arithmetic" subtest is found on VIQ section of the WAIS test. But math doesn't just involve analytical, sequential and logical thinking alone. It involves visual-spatial reasoning, particularily when it comes to non-verbal aspects of math like geometry and trig. It involves memory, both long-term, short-term and working memory which is part of short-term memory. It involves processing speed. It involves abstraction, concept formation and problem solving abilites. Alot of that relates to executive functioning.

Alot of these things have little or nothing to with anything that falls under the rubric of what we call "verbal intelligence". As far as my specific problems with math are concerned, that's going to be a difficult question for me to answer. It seems my own problems stem from many, if not all, of the aforementioned. First of all, I can tell you a few things the psychologists who administered my IQ tests told me about my problems with math. On one report, I was diagnosed with "Developmental Arithmetic Disorder" (mild). On another, I was simply diagnosed with Mathematics Disorder which is an official Dx in the DSM-IV. On two others, I was diagnosed with LD-NOS and I was told my learning difficulties mostly manifest as problems with math. On the most recent IQ test I took, I received no learning disability Dx or mathematical disorder Dx at all. Likely because I scored so high on that particular test with a verbal IQ of 155 and FSIQ of 143. My performance IQ was only 111, but that's still in the high average range. Many psychologists (wrongfully IMO) won't give you a learning disability diagnosis if your FSIQ/VIQ/PIQ scores are really high. They just don't seem to take the discrepancy in subtest scores into account much. Nor does a discrepancy between the actual VIQ and PIQ mean much to them if both scores are high enough. On my most recent test, there was a discrepancy of 44 point between VIQ and PIQ (in favor of VIQ).






I always score within the average or high average range on the arithmetic subtest on VIQ. But compared to all my other verbal subtests (which are in the above-average, superior and very superior ranges) the arithmetic subtest is considered a relative weakness for me. This in itself is very common for those who fit the general NVLD profile. I was told I fit the general NVLD profile on three out of the five neuropsych evals i've had. NVLD is not yet a formal Dx though so needless to say, you can't be officially diagnosed with NVLD. In one of my neuropsych evals, the administering psychologist said that considering the errors I made on the arithmetic subtest, I seem to display difficulities both conceptualizing numerical word problems as well as performing calculations in my head. Still, this same psychologist remarked that in spite of meeting the criteria for a specific learning disabilty in mathematics, I do appear to have the capacity to handle high school levels of math and beyond. On another test, I was told I demonstrate a weakness in "fluid ability" or ability to solve new problems which depend on neither schooling nor acculturation. I would say this could have much to do with the problems I have in math as well.


I asked the psychologists who administered these two tests to give me their professional opinion regarding my ultimate capabilities at math based upon the results of the two IQ/neuropsych tests. For example, I asked them if they believed I had the "ultimate" capacity to handle math as advanced as calculus. They both told me that based upon the results, they saw no reason that I couldn't, but it would likely present a struggle for me.

As far as my own insights into my problems with math....that's a more difficult question to answer. I can and will mention a few specifics, but the fundamental problem/s are not entirely clear to me. Generally speaking, I just have a difficult time comprehending any sort of math beyond the pre-algebra level. What I DO comprehend beyond that level I never seem to remember. Just for one example, I always get the "greater-than/lesser-than" symbols (< >) mixed up no matter how many times I "learn" which one is greater than and which one is lesser than.


So that's just one problem....I never remember what alot of the symbols mean. I even have problems remembering how to do alot of things in pre-algebraic math. For example,..I have no problem UNDERSTANDING how to add, multiply, divide or subtract fractions. But.....I never remember how to do those things no matter how many times i've "learned" how to do them. Granted, I rarely need to work with fractions for any reason in my everyday life and maybe if I did, i'd remember how to add, subtract, etc....them if I was doing so on a regular basis. On the other hand, I don't have a problem with my multiplication tables. I can easily multiply any one digit numbers in my head and i've noticed that alot of people, regardless of their other abilities at math, often have trouble remembering, for example, that 7 x 8=56. So I can add, multiply, divide or subtract any one digit numbers in my head. I can ADD two digit numbers easily enough in my head, but I can't easily (if at all) divide, subtract or multiply them.

According to the DSM-IV....a number of different skills may be impaired in those with mathematics disorders. These would include "linguistic" skills (e,g; understanding or naming mathematical terms, operations, or concepts, and decoding written problems into mathematical symbols) "perceptual" skills (e.g; recognizing or reading numerical symbols or arithmetic signs, and clustering objects into groups) "attention" skills (e.g; copying numbers or figures correctly, remembering to add in "carried" numbers and observing operational signs).

I seem to have problems with both the "linguistic" skills (in spite of my generally high verbal IQ) as they pertain to math and the "perceptual skills". But there are countless other skills which can be impaired that the DSM-IV doesn't mention. Visual-Spatial reasoning is one of them and memory is another (Long-term and/or short term/working memory) and I seem to have MAJOR problems in those areas in terms of math and maybe an untold number of things not related to either. My problems with memory seem to be limited to long-term memory...but i'd say this a pretty big limitation provided my LT memory problems are as neurologically-based (meaning they are not an unintentional/unconscious exaggeration or imagination on my part) and severe as I believe they are likely to be.


To make this easier on myself....I thought i'd include a more comprehensive list of many of the skill deficits which can impact one's performance at math. I doubt there is any single list which includes ALL potential skill deficits related to learning difficulties with math, but i'll find one that includes many the DSM-IV doesn't mention, or at least, more specific details about the ones it does mention. I'll comment upon these skills in bold insofar as which ones I do/don't have problems with and the ones i'm not sure about.




This symptom list is from http://www.dyscalculia.org/



-Normal or accelerated language acquisition: verbal, reading, writing. Poetic ability. Good visual memory for the printed word. Good in the areas of science (until a level requiring higher math skills is reached), geometry (figures with logic not formulas), and creative arts. My language is easily within normal ranges and probably accelerated. I don't think I have much in terms of "poetic ability" (but i've never even tried to write much poetry) and my memory for the printed word seems pretty awful. I am good enough with science until it involves visual-spatial/non-verbal and/or higher math concepts. I can't think of too many science courses that don't at the college level. I am even worse at geometry than I am at algebra. My abilites at logic seem pretty bad too in spite of good results on my VIQ tests and supposedly high levels of abstract reasoning ability. I nearly failed a logic course in college in spite of putting considerable effort into it. I am pretty bad at logic puzzles too. Thus....it's not just geometry figures with formulas I have a problem with. I have no ability in the creative arts in terms of drawing, painting, sculpting, dancing, acting, etc.... My writing ability is ok and i've been told countless times that I should be a writer or a journalist. Still....I don't feel like a creative person at all. I play guitar a bit, but i'm not very good at it. I've been playing for years and I only took a few lessons. I don't know how to read either formal musical notation or guitar tablature. Everything I can play on guitar I either pick up by ear or learn by watching someone else. I used to play trombone a bit in grade school, but only learned to read music well enough to play the "star-spangled banner". Beyond that....sheet music just seemed to become too hard for me and I gave up. I will admit that I do give up on countless things when they don't come easily to me. Still....my long term memory problems seem to prevent me from learning solos/leads on guitar or songs with alot of chord and other changes in them. Also...my fine motor skills are pretty bad so the dexterity necessary to be a really good guitarist just isn't there for me.




-Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. Substitute names beginning with same letter. Don't seem to have any significant problems here.




-Difficulty with the abstract concepts of time and direction. Inability to recall schedules, and sequences of past or future events. Unable to keep track of time. May be chronically late. No major problems here either




-Inconsistent results in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Poor mental math ability. Poor with money and credit. Cannot do financial planning or budgeting. Checkbooks not balanced. Short term, not long term financial thinking. Fails to see big financial picture. May have fear of money and cash transactions. May be unable to mentally figure change due back, the amounts to pay for tips, taxes, etc. Eh....i'm fine with adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing on paper. Again...i'm ok at adding two digit numbers in my head, but things become difficult even there when i'm anxious or stressed. No problems with my multiplication tables. I'm ok with money/credit....but like I said....I do have major problems REMEMBERING how to add/divide/multiply/subtract fractions, how to convert fractions into decimals and vice versa. Overall i'd say my mental math ability is just average or a bit below. I can budget well enough. I'm ok with figuring out change due back and calculating the amount to leave for tips. I have my own way of calculating tips though. I just figure out what would be 10% of the bill (say $2.85 for a bill that's $28.54) and determine what half (approximately at least) of the given 10% would be, add that to my 10% and I have my standard 15% for a tip.





-When writing, reading and recalling numbers, these common mistakes are made: number additions, substitutions, transpositions, omissions, and reversals. No major difficulties here



-Inability to grasp and remember math concepts, rules, formulas, sequence (order of operations), and basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts. Poor long term memory (retention & retrieval) of concept mastery- may be able to perform math operations one day, but draw a blank the next! May be able to do book work but fails all tests and quizzes. SERIOUS problems in these areas aside from basic addition, multiplication, subtraction and division ( again...except when adding, dividing, etc....fractions) My long term memory of "concept mastery" seems nonexistent. Just like my long term memory for everything else. Yes...I can even grasp alot of algebra problems straight from the textbook explanations of them. In other words, with no tutoring involved whatsover. But just like it says here....I might be able to perform the operations one day (again.....not just algebraic operations...this applies to fractions as well) but I draw a blank the next. I was able to do alot of the book work in algebra, though not without difficulty. But I did fail all the tests and quizzes and alot of that failure had to do with an inability to remember what I thought I had down pat.




-May be unable to comprehend or "picture" mechanical processes. Lack "big picture/ whole picture" thinking. Poor ability to "visualize or picture" the location of the numbers on the face of a clock, the geographical locations of states, countries, oceans, streets, etc. I'm not exactly sure what they're referring to here when they say "mechanical processes". I don't know if this is limited the "mechanical processes" in math or mechanical reasoning as it pertains to assembling a piece of furniture or something. Or both. But yes....I do lack "big picture/whole thinking" and I think this at least is confirmed by my poor performance on the block design and object assembly IQ subtests. I don't have problems visualizing the numbers on the face of a clock. I do have problems REMEMBERING the exact geographic location of many, but not all, states and more obscure countries like Uganda or something. I really suck at visualizing just about everything. A few weeks ago another poster on WP mentioned that he could not remember how many sides a cube has just by trying to visualize a cube in his head. He had to actually look at a cube to determine it has six sides and so did I. Now i'll probably never forget that a cube has six sides, but still, I really can't visualize a cube very well in my head. The images just seems to fade rapidly or it's very vague and foggy. I can't really even explain it better than that.




Poor memory for the "layout" of things. Gets lost or disoriented easily. May have a poor sense of direction, loose things often, and seem absent minded. (Remember the absent minded professor?) Not really any serious problems in this area.




-May have difficulty grasping concepts of formal music education. Difficulty sight-reading music, learning fingering to play an instrument, etc. Been over this already



-May have poor athletic coordination, difficulty keeping up with rapidly changing physical directions like in aerobic, dance, and exercise classes. Difficulty remembering dance step sequences, rules for playing sports. Absolutely abysmal in this area. Can't remember dance steps sequences to save my life. Don't even have the coordination or the "bodily-kinesthetic" intelligence Howard Gardner postulates to perform many of them in the first place. Ditto for exercise routines. I have no athlectic ability at all really.



-Difficulty keeping score during games, or difficulty remembering how to keep score in games, like bowling, etc. Often looses track of whose turn it is during games, like cards and board games. Limited strategic planning ability for games, like chess. Eh...no real problems in this area though I often loose track of whose turn it is during certain games like Rummikub (sp?). I guess my strategic planning for games like chess aren't very good. I haven't played chess for years and I don't even remember how. I did play with my dad when I was a kid and I actually used to beat him quite a bit. Though maybe he was just letting me beat him...idk.

These are some more skill deficits from Wikipedia:


-Frequent difficulties with arithmetic, confusing the signs: +, −, ÷ and ×. Yes.....but i'm fine with the signs mentioned here. I confuse the "greater-than/lesser-than" symbols all the time for one thing. This seems to be the case no matter how many times I learn which one is greater-than and which one is lesser-than. The typical mnemonic devices like the "alligator rule" (for want of a better term) don't seem to help me much with < > either.


-Many of those who suffer from dyscalculia may have parents who perform well to excellent in Mathematics-related fields (such as architects, engineers, or math teachers), though this connection has yet to be genetically linked.My mother is excellent at math and was chemistry major in college. My father is horrible at math and like his son, couldn't even manage introductory algebra. This was after several attempts and after my step-mother (who is also excellent at math) tried to tutor him. He worked as stationary engineer (with no college degree or formal training outside of the navy where he worked in the boiler room of a destroyer during the Vietnam war) and he, UNLIKE his son, is very mechanically-inclinded. I suspect he's a very visual thinker in the sense that Temple Grandin is, but not nearly as gifted in visual thinking as she is. Thus...it's likely he would actually be decent at geometry and trigonometry in spite of his difficulities with algebraic-type math (much like Temple Grandin again). But he's never needed to learn geometry or trig for any pratical reason, so I can't be sure about this.


-Might do exceptionally well in a writing related field- many authors and journalists have this disorder I've always been told i'm a gifted writer and that I should be a professional writer or journalist. Again...all my VIQ scores except for the arithmetic subtest were at least in the above-average and when it comes to vocabulary, information and similiarities, often in the very superior range. I also score in the above-range range for reading comprehension. Still.....I don't feel i'm a creative person in the least. And since my long-term memory for ANYTHING seems profoundly impaired...I don't know how i'd ever make it as a writer or journalist even if I was more creative than I am.



-The condition may lead in extreme cases to a phobia or durable anxiety of mathematics and mathematic-numeric devices/coherences Needless to say.....I do have extreme anxiety every time i'm faced with a math pproblem aside from the types i've mentioned which are easy for me. This too was confirmed on many of my neuropsych evals.

These are some of skill deficits people can have when it comes to math, but it's not all of them. It may not even be all i'm deficient at. But since any remaining skill deficits are fairly complicated, technical (described in alot of neuropsychological jargon I don't even understand half the time) and specific, i'm forced to leave those out.

Sorry for the very long post here and god knows if you Danielismyname, or anyone else, is even going to read it let alone respond to it. Nonetheless....you asked me a few questions and I wanted to answer them. It's just that I know of no other way to answer the questions you asked as problems with math are extremely varied, complex and idiosyncratic. My own are even more difficult to understand simply because the results of my neuropsych/IQ tests (and what the psychs told me about said results) would suggest my math difficulties shouldn't be AS serious as they seem TO ME. The exception to this would be some of my subtest scores on PIQ like block design and object assembly. Poor performance on these tests might accurately predict difficulties with the visual-spatial/non-verbal aspects of math and I certainly have no shortage of those problems. Bottom line....i'm really not 100% certain what my problem/s with math entail ultimately.


Also.....keep in mind I have never been diagnosed with any long-term memory problems whatsover. Nonetheless...I have every reason to believe I have some very profound ones of unknown etiology. And as an article from the Oxford Journal of Neurology which i've posted many times on WP suggests.....it is entirely possible for people to have serious long-term memory impairments which simply don't show up on all the standard neuropsychological memory tests. So I either have some very severe neurlogically-based long-term memory problems or i've *somehow* imagined, or at least grossly exaggerated, them.


That's why i'm asking about all this here....any further insight into my brain is always something i'm looking for.

Hopefully the rest of you who responded in this thread will read my previous post directed at Danielismyname.

It's very long so it's totally understandable if NO ONE reads it let alone responds to it.


Though one can always hope.


At any rate.....it took me hours to craft that post and that said.....I hope the rest of you will understand if I don't reply to your posts. All very well-taken and brilliant as i've come to expect from posters on WP, but I simply just don't have the time or energy to respond to everybody. My snail-like typing speed doesn't make it any easier either. Daniel asked me a some specific questions and I thought i'd respond. His questions aren't easy ones to answer and I don't even know if I answered them adequately or not in any case. Mathematics disorders, IQ testing, visual-spatial skills,memory, etc.....aren't exactly the most simplistic subjects in the entire world and it's difficult to say anything meaningful about these things at all in just a few sentences or so. Especially when the issues are so complicated and incongruous as mine certainly appear to be.