Page 1 of 1 [ 16 posts ] 

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

24 Aug 2010, 10:30 pm

Given my predilection for criticizing the UK government's authoritarian style of ruling, I was fairly surprised to find the following site:

http://programmeforgovernment.hmg.gov.u ... index.html

Quote:
Civil liberties

We will be strong in defence of freedom. The Government believes that the British state has become too authoritarian, and that over the past decade it has abused and eroded fundamental human freedoms and historic civil liberties. We need to restore the rights of individuals in the face of encroaching state power, in keeping with Britain’s tradition of freedom and fairness.

* We will implement a full programme of measures to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties and roll back state intrusion.
* We will introduce a Freedom Bill.
* We will scrap the ID card scheme, the National Identity register and the ContactPoint database, and halt the next generation of biometric passports.
* We will outlaw the finger-printing of children at school without parental permission.
* We will extend the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to provide greater transparency.
* We will adopt the protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database.
* We will protect historic freedoms through the defence of trial by jury.
* We will restore rights to non-violent protest.
* We will review libel laws to protect freedom of speech.
* We will introduce safeguards against the misuse of anti-terrorism legislation.
* We will further regulate CCTV.
* We will end the storage of internet and email records without good reason.
* We will introduce a new mechanism to prevent the proliferation of unnecessary new criminal offences.
* We will establish a Commission to investigate the creation of a British Bill of Rights that incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights, ensures that these rights continue to be enshrined in British law, and protects and extends British liberties. We will seek to promote a better understanding of the true scope of these obligations and liberties.


I'm just blown away (in a good way) that someone in the government over there is acknowledging that they've gone too far and plan to roll back some of the more egregious overreaches, that's pretty rare coming from any government. I'll of course be waiting to see if the follow through lives up to the hype, but I'm very pleased with this development, even if it does cost me my favorite big government whipping boy. :wink:


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

24 Aug 2010, 10:35 pm

Contrast with this article on the ASBO system:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/05/11/d ... -the-peace

Quote:
"Unlike Winston, [Julia] had grasped the inner meaning of the Party's sexual puritanism. It was not merely that the sex instinct created a world of its own which was outside the Party's control and which therefore had to be destroyed if possible. What was more important was that sexual privation induced hysteria, which was desirable because it could be transformed into war-fever and leader-worship."

So wrote George Orwell in 1984, his dystopian vision of a future world where mankind's every thought, desire, and bodily tingle would be policed by the powers-that-be. Orwell imagined a Junior Anti-Sex League that spied on kissing and cavorting adults, and a ruling Party that sought to squash the "sex impulse." The heroes of his nightmarish tale—Winston and Julia—had to sneak off to a wood in order to explore each other bodies in a bit of peace and quiet.

It turns out that Orwell was suffering from premature speculation. It was not in 1984 that a major Western government made the "sex impulse"—the grunting, groaning sex instinct—into a police matter; it was in 2009. Here in the U.K., to add to our already-existing panoply of Orwellian measures—5 million CCTV cameras that watch our every move; "speaking cameras" that warn us to pick up litter or stop loitering; the government's attempt to recruit child spies to re-educate anti-social adults—we now have the bizarre and terrifying situation where a woman has been arrested for having sex too loudly.

Yes, in modern-day Britain even the decibels of our sexual moaning can become the subject of a police investigation.

At the end of April, Caroline Cartwright, a 48-year-old housewife from Wearside in the north east of England, was remanded in custody for having "excessively noisy sex." The cops took her in after neighbors complained of hearing her "shouting and groaning" and her "bed banging against the wall of her home." Cartwright has, quite reasonably, defended her inalienable right to be a howler: "I can't stop making noise during sex. It's unnatural to not make any noises and I don't think that I am particularly loud."

Pleasurable groaning and bed-banging are common noises in crowded towns and cities across the civilized world. Most of us deal with them by sticking a CD in the stereo. Those who complain are normally told to stop being prudish or to have a discreet chat with the creators of the offending sex sounds. So how did Cartwright's expressions of noisy joy become a police case, which later this month will be ruled on at Newcastle Crown Court, one of the biggest courts in the north of England?

Because, unbelievably, Cartwright had previously been served with an Anti-Social Behaviour Order (ASBO)—a civil order that is used to control the minutiae of British people's behaviour—that forbade her from making "excessive noise during sex" anywhere in England.

That's right, going even further than Orwell's imagined authoritarian hellhole, where at least there was a wood or two where people could indulge their sexual impulses, the local authorities in Wearside made all of England a no-go zone for Cartwright's noisy shenanigans. If she wanted to howl with abandon, she would have to nip over the border to Scotland or maybe catch a ferry to France. It was because she breached the conditions of her Anti-Social Behaviour Order, the civil ruling about how much noise she can make while making love in England, that Cartwright was arrested.

This case sheds harsh light not only on the Victorian-style petty prudishness of our rulers, who seriously believe they can make sexually expressive women timid again by dragging them to court, but on the tyranny of Anti-Social Behaviour Orders themselves. Introduced by our authoritarian Labour government in 1998, anyone can apply for an ASBO to stop anyone else from doing something that they find irritating, "alarming," or "threatening."

Local magistrates' courts issue the orders, sometimes on the basis of hearsay evidence (which is permissible in "ASBO cases"). In short, the applicant for an ASBO does not have to go through the normal rigors of the criminal justice system in order to get a civil ruling preventing someone he doesn't like from doing something that he finds "alarming" or "dangerous." Once you have been branded with an ASBO, if you break its conditions—by having noisy sex in your own home, for example—you are potentially guilty of a crime and can be imprisoned.

The ASBO system has turned much of Britain into a curtain-twitching, neighbor-watching, noise-policing gang of spies. The relative ease with which one can apply to the authorities for an ASBO positively invites people to use the system to punish their foes or the irritants who live in their neighborhoods. ASBOs have been used to prevent young people in certain areas from wearing hoods or hats (they look "threatening"), to ban a middle-aged couple from playing gangsta rap (the expletives offended workers and children at a nearby kindergarten), and to prevent a 10-year-old boy from having contact with matches until he turns 16, after he was found to have started a fire.

And now, prudish people who previously would have been told to "put up or shut up" over their neighbors' noisy sex have been empowered to turn one woman's private affairs into a very public trial. This, too, is Orwellian: the creation of new layers of spies and inter-communal suspicion.

In Orwell's dystopia, "the sexual act, successfully performed, was rebellion." So it is in Wearside in 2009, where the excessively noisy exploits of Cartwright and her possibly very talented partner are a form of rebellion against the arbitrary and interventionist nature of the ASBO-wielding powers-that-be. They are screwing for liberty.

Brendan O'Neill is editor of spiked in London.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


you_are_what_you_is
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 755
Location: Cornwall, UK

24 Aug 2010, 10:54 pm

* We will further regulate CCTV.

I'm not sure what this involves, but I don't like the sound of it. A lot of people have identified the problem with CCTV, but they've opted for the regressive solution of simply trying to cut down cameras, which will limit freedom and increase crime.

I would rather have it that all cameras installed by the government should be freely available to the public. I'm not sure how they would do this - perhaps you could feed them all to an internet site, or something like that.

.


_________________
"There is no idea, however ancient and absurd, that is not capable of improving our knowledge."


adifferentname
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,885

25 Aug 2010, 2:25 am

you_are_what_you_is wrote:
* We will further regulate CCTV.

I'm not sure what this involves, but I don't like the sound of it. A lot of people have identified the problem with CCTV, but they've opted for the regressive solution of simply trying to cut down cameras, which will limit freedom and increase crime.

I would rather have it that all cameras installed by the government should be freely available to the public. I'm not sure how they would do this - perhaps you could feed them all to an internet site, or something like that.

.


I'm not sure how this would benefit anyone other than criminals looking to circumvent coverage by searching for 'black spots' in the coverage.



BigK
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

25 Aug 2010, 3:53 am

Dox47 wrote:
Given my predilection for criticizing the UK government's authoritarian style of ruling, I was fairly surprised to find the following site:

http://programmeforgovernment.hmg.gov.u ... index.html


I'm just blown away (in a good way) that someone in the government over there is acknowledging that they've gone too far and plan to roll back some of the more egregious overreaches, that's pretty rare coming from any government. I'll of course be waiting to see if the follow through lives up to the hype, but I'm very pleased with this development, even if it does cost me my favorite big government whipping boy. :wink:


You do realise that this is a completely new coalition government? It includes a party that has not had power since before I was born. (and that was some time ago ;) ).

For all their faults my gut feeling is that I would still prefer the previous lot.

The government can propose what it likes. These proposals still need to get through parliament. It will be interesting to see if even members of their own parties will vote for all this.

I don't think that you need to worry about having no one to complain about.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11079496


_________________
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he used to say. "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

"How can it not know what it is?"


BigK
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

25 Aug 2010, 4:59 am

Dox47 wrote:
Contrast with this article on the ASBO system:

http://reason.com/archives/2009/05/11/d ... -the-peace


So you would be happy to have your children having to listen to this woman's moaning and shrieking then ;)

Similarly how happy are you with neighbours playing their massive HI-FIs at full volume all hours of the day or night.
How many serious assaults occur each year as a direct results of that?

I suppose you were all for the kindergarten kids being blasted with gangsta rap? I wonder what parental advisory means.

Do you believe that everyone should be able to do what ever they wish? Why don't we just disband all police forces and go for total lawlessness?

At least try to link to a more balanced and unbiased article if possible. ;)


_________________
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he used to say. "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

"How can it not know what it is?"


Mutate
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 497

25 Aug 2010, 5:06 am

I have no experience with asbos making people feel paranoid or police state, i just hear of them given to violent people who mug and attack people here.



sartresue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 69
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,313
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism

25 Aug 2010, 7:49 am

Legislation versus cameras topic

Cameras can do a good job of ID-ing persons of interest when a crime has occurred. In Canada they are in more places than you would believe. :twisted:

However, the hair splitting laws that are mentioned in the story by Dox are just silly. Instead of outlawing sex, in my country we have noise laws--which include screaming, swearing, loud music and anything that would be irritating to neighbours. i
It has nothing to do with sex, language or taste in music. Be a good neighbour!!

In jolly old UK it seems as if the citizenry is taking things much too personally. :roll:


_________________
Radiant Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind

Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory

NOT a believer of Mystic Woo-Woo


Asp-Z
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,018

25 Aug 2010, 7:54 am

Quote:
We will review libel laws to protect freedom of speech.


Cool, they're stupid at the moment. I hope they repeal the Digital Economy Act too.



BigK
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

25 Aug 2010, 8:03 am

sartresue wrote:
Legislation versus cameras topic

Cameras can do a good job of ID-ing persons of interest when a crime has occurred. In Canada they are in more places than you would believe. :twisted:

However, the hair splitting laws that are mentioned in the story by Dox are just silly. Instead of outlawing sex, in my country we have noise laws--which include screaming, swearing, loud music and anything that would be irritating to neighbours. i
It has nothing to do with sex, language or taste in music. Be a good neighbour!!

In jolly old UK it seems as if the citizenry is taking things much too personally. :roll:


Your comments just show how misleading the article is.
This is no different to the laws that you have.

Next no doubt next we'll be hearing that David Cameron is a Muslim.


_________________
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he used to say. "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

"How can it not know what it is?"


Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

25 Aug 2010, 9:10 am

ID cards/NIR have already been scrapped.

It's interesting but in my view I don't think it goes far enough.

An end to the denormalisation of certain 'lifestyle choices' - smoking, eating, drinking and so on
A culling of most (if not all) QUANGOs and all fake charities
Repeal of the smoking ban to be replaced by something less draconian and authoritarian
A referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union
The destruction of the NHS CfH database scheme
The restoration of the Common Travel Area
A special CCTV Commission that regulates and oversees all public CCTV cameras (private ones are a different matter.) Good reasons must be given for each camera; if they can't provide a good reason then they should not be allowed.
A look at the pub tie system in this country and measures to actually help the pub trade - beer prices cannot keep rising - more and more pubs are either closing or are in serious trouble

And so on.



visagrunt
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Vancouver, BC

25 Aug 2010, 1:50 pm

The cynic in me believes that this is just so much rhetoric that will, in the fullness of time, lead to very little substantive change.

There are a few good pieces in here:

Rolling back state intrusion is generally a positive move. Every Cabinet decision ought to be founded upon the question, "is there a proper role for government here."

The protections on the DNA database, anti-terrorism legislation, the right to non-violent protest and review of defamation laws are all valuable moves. British defamation law has been particularly difficult for defendants because of its extremely broad scope. Courts in England and Wales will accept jusrisdiction for defamation claims on very narrow grounds.

There are a few puzzlers:

A Freedom Bill looks like so much jargon. Until we see what it actually says, and see that it actually has some practical impact, I am not moved.

Further regulating CCTV seems a retrograde step for what is, at heart, a libertarian manifesto. I would have expected to see their removal from public space. But this is the constant battle between the libertarian and the social conservative sides of the right wing.

The mechanism to prevent proliferation of offences sounds inane. Parliament is free to legislate, and the Crown in Council is free to regulate, subject to statutory authority. Will this mechanism be an entirely new level of review? Will there be a Department of Administrative Affairs established to effect this mechanism?

A "British Bill of Rights" sounds like a decidedly left-leaning piece, particularly the incorporated reference to the European Convention. Until, of course, you start to think about what an, "understanding of the true scope" of these liberties might be. The Tories coalition partners may have words on this subject.

There are few hopeless promises:

Every new government promises greater transparency and accountability, and then discovers that the actual process of decision making does not allow them to control their message, which leads them to circle the wagons on access to information. Cameron's ideological cellmate, Stephen Harper, is particularly hypocritical on this subject.

Trial by jury is something we can all stand behind, but wait for the screams from the Tory constituency members when summoned to serve on a complex fraud case expected to last 18 months. Also, jury tampering remains a real and ongoing issue, and it cannot be blithely legislated out of existence. The law and order crowd would not have been pleased to see a third mistrial on the Heathrow robbery.

There are some particularly stupid moves embedded in here:

The halt to next generation biometic passports has the potential to eliminate visa free access to the United States, as well as creating an opportunity for greater counterfeiting and alteration of British passports.


_________________
--James


Asp-Z
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,018

25 Aug 2010, 1:51 pm

Oh, and they seriously need to add Fair Use to UK copyright law.



merrymadscientist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 533
Location: UK

25 Aug 2010, 3:19 pm

I'm all for civil liberties - ID cards,excessive CCTV and the DNA database are things that really bother me and why I voted for the Lib Dems in the election (although I am uneasy about the Tory coalition, friend of the rich and big business - not that Labour were much better).

However, civil liberties mean although someone should have freedom to do what they like in their own house (within the law), I should also have freedom to be able to relax and sleep in my own house. I am extremely sensitive to other people's noise and hate being able to hear my neighbors at all - it feels like an invasion of privacy and winds me up at any time of day, but at night becomes unbearable, destroys sleep and I could easily end up being violent towards someone who refuses to be quiet in that situation. I consider that someone keeping me awake at night with noise is worse than someone punching me in the face - and people don't have the freedom to do that!

My take on civil liberties is that everyone (excepting children in some respects) should be free to do what they like in their personal life as long as it doesn't compromise other people's freedoms/rights. There will always be conflicting issues and it has to be decided whether the freedom to sleep in peace and quiet (and good sleep is essential for good health) is more important than the freedom for self expression (music etc.). I think the best compromise is to have a time during the evening/night when people should be quieter and a time during the day/early evening when people can express themselves freely (as long as not too loud to damage ears obviously) - noise at this time will still annoy me, but if I know it will be quiet later I can not get too bothered about it and know I'll be able to sleep. If people are going to demand freedom to express themselves at all hours of the day, I will demand freedom from other people's noises at all times of day - neither is realistic unfortunately so we have to compromise.

Actually, one major problem is the shoddy sound proofing in modern buildings - I live in a new flat with sound proofing to apparently modern standards - it is decent between adjacent flats and to the exterior but non-existent above and below and out to the corridor, to the extent that I can hear people using their toilet (and not just flushing). I am frequently woken up at night by doors closing or water rushing through the pipes and don't blame my neighbors at all for this - you can't expect people to stay locked in their flats all night and not use the toilet. The property developers are the real culprits, and laws enforcing good soundproofing between houses and flats would probably improve the quality of life of millions of people and prevent a lot of such conflicts.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

26 Aug 2010, 5:54 am

sartresue wrote:
Instead of outlawing sex, in my country we have noise laws--which include screaming, swearing, loud music and anything that would be irritating to neighbours. i
It has nothing to do with sex, language or taste in music. Be a good neighbour!!

In jolly old UK it seems as if the citizenry is taking things much too personally. :roll:


The American/Canadian methods of dealing with these sorts of issues as generalized noise complaints are less open to abuse than the ASBO system, which is demonstrably linked to petty grievances and vendettas being carried out by the government with public funds. Another objection to the ASBO is that it criminalized behavior that is otherwise lawful for a particular person, I have similar objections to the parole/probation system here in the US.

Hopefully the new men it town will scrap the whole thing, but I'm not holding my breath quite yet.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Asp-Z
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,018

26 Aug 2010, 5:57 am

On the subject of noise laws and sex... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/8413974.stm :P