The 'Hookup Culture' of my generation...

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Wow Nessa, that's outrageous. He said "bad boy s**t" to you, I'm so sorry. The stupid information about leak is typical of the "bad boys". Maybe he read on internet this was a way to be a "as*hole with women but a badass with my bad boy friends", in the section "cool internet answers to women you don't fancy anymore, you awesome badass macho".

Don't answer him again or he'll send you more boring spam.

No, really, he is too pathethic and immature.

I once read a joke before that went something like:
"Women may be able to fake orgasms, but men can fake entire relationships"

I found this humorous on the surface, because I can see it's truth. But it is sad.

Men can fake entire relationships, and it happens alot. This seems like a huge criticsm and hate towards men, and to most women who don't understand why that would be, it can seem terrible.

But being a male who understands the first hand experience all too well, I can identify with it and it saddens me.

I've certainly in the past feigned more interest than I initially had just to get into some relation, because I was essentially starving for relation. When you reach the point of morbid depression concerning loneliness, your willing to put aside alot instincts, alot of innate feelings, just to get rid of that loneliness. The loneliness goes away for a while, for a while your happy because of the change and not being lonely. But then as the novelty of being with somewhere wears off, once the 'chemical high' of new sex and being with someone wears off, your just left with your original feelings about the person.

Which sounds terrible of men, but I'd really like to express that at a certain point for me it literally became a difference between "I am going to kill myself from loneliness, or I am going to make myself like this girl". In ignorance of youth, at the time, you really do believe that you can be happier by forcing yourself to like someone, and you will adapt to it, becoming permanently happier. But I think it does take going through such a thing once to be able to realize, you were just fooling yourself.

From my point of view, which is clearly and obviously a male biased point of view. I see the real root of this as being the double-edge sword for how easy it for women to get in relations.

Women may be able to hookup way easier, but this results in it being far more difficult for them to find someone who actually likes them, and wants to be with them for an extended period of time.

Our culture has this setup where, women are supposed to look pretty and desirable, and then men approach. Men then try to impress, men put on a show to validate themselves. The problem with this, only a small percentage of males know how to do this with any effectiveness. Which results in a small percentage of men being able to get lots of sex, from multiple girls, and making girls seem disposable to them, resulting in girls feeling disposable to men. The men who have the skills to pick up women also have a tendency to have sex with girls way below their standards, just because they like sex.

This makes women fall in love with, and expect a man, who can swoon them, sweep them off their feet. Girls then hold out for this, having sex with the slu*ty men who are apt at doing such a thing, and have thus begun to see women as disposable because of it.

This leaves alot of men with no chance. The bar has been raised by a small percentage of men, the rest of which can never attain. Women hold out for these men. Leaving lots of men horribly lonely and isolated. Such men will then jump at whatever chance they get.

Given this set up, I've always felt the solution was more equality in the cultural expectations of seduction. Women need to seek out, pick out and seduce men as actively as men try to seduce women. Women need to stop waiting for, and expecting to be swooned. Women need to see the qualities in men that are beautiful, besides their ability to swoon, and be attracted to them for that. Women need to basically be doing what men have been having to do for thousands of years to get sex. I think if women themselves picked out men, and went after them, this would even the odds much more. It would allow men, who previously would not have gotten attention for their lack of swooning skills, to now get attention. To not feel as desperate, lonely, and not make decisions out of such things.

Of course, I am aware I put the solution to that entirely on women, I warned you this was a biased explanation. I am male, I can't help but think that. But more than just being biased towards males, I would like to think I am biased to gender equality. I personally think this goes both ways. I think men need to be more emotional and more domestic, take on roles women once carried. Conversely women need to be more pro-active in choosing and seducing mates, not just waiting for what comes and swoons them. More equality in roles is what I see as needing ot happen, and I see this role of the 'seducer' is still largely placed entirely on men, which is causing disruption to natural dynamics in things which result from seduction.

Which I am not saying you just waited to be swooned, I have no idea the dynamics of your relation. Most of what I have just said is based off observations and experiences of my personal life, not any interpretation or assumption of yours. It's just I thought this viewpoint I had based off my observations and experiences, may be applicable to your experience in some way so I decided to share it.

It is complete BS that he did that. But I can also relate to his emotions far too well.

As an aspie/female my experience seems opposite this. Most people our age that I'm around want to find a partner and settle down. My ideal is to be without much commitment to others because it's so much stress and it's unpredictable. I'm unpredictable. I will likely move around quite a bit in the next five to ten(maybe more) years for school. Even after that, I don't see myself looking for someone to be permanently in my life like that. Maybe my friends, even now when I make a friend I feel connected in a deep and meaningful way that grows stronger all of the time. But romantic partners, something just doesn't click. I don't want to be tied down or have someone bound to me when they make life decisions.

And maybe it was part of growing up into a weird dating life where, from a young age, it was just about sex to me. Sex was sex and romance wasn't my thing. Sex CAN be a visceral thing for me, if I'm high(I'm mainly referring to weed when I say high) or if it's with a close close friend, but in general sex isn't a visceral thing for me, it's a physical thing and it's not much more than that.


Actually, some find it weird but for me, interactions with friends, even intellectual conversations, are simultaneously visceral for me. My FRIENDS are people I grow to love and have a ceaseless feeling of fondness for. I've made friends on WP that I want to be in contact with until I'm old and useless to the world.

Yet I don't feel that way about the kind of relationship I have with my girlfriend. I see us being friends for as long as we possibly can but we're never going to live together or get married or adopt kids together.

I don't know. That is looked down on, I'm called a slut and told I lack something essential to having a worthwhile life. People take their extremely common values and project all of their insecurity onto me and I just have to shrug it off.

So what if sex doesn't mean anything to me?

And I greatly appreciate the friends I have who don't have moral or ethical opinions about what my dating/sex life is like, or anyone who doesn't offer up their snarky or judgemental or passive aggressive crap.

I wish I could escape that without having to be very secretive and dodge questions/lie etc. People talking about romantic relationships A LOT and I assume it's because it's maybe the most common way we interact with another human beings once we're adults. I wish it were super common to just be okay with what others do as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

And I wish it were easier for all of us to find what makes us happy in life and rainbows and MLP and probably a kitten or two and my post is making no sense now. ^_^

Another email has arrived today:-

"have you calmed down yet?
& would that stuff be any good for your roof?"

He seems to be living in a parallel universe or something!

Yes I understand how it is from the male point of view but it's as if men want it both ways ie to be able to get a woman to give them sex while being able to keep letting her know she's not really what they want but she'll do for now and should stop moaning if he insults her as she's lucky to be getting any attention at all! I am being made the whipping girl for the fanciable women not wanting to know him basically!

To even up the score, should I find a man I don't fancy and f-k his life up in return?

Can you see why this would make a lot of women say they can't be bothered with men full stop?

Yes, I get it, men only want the beautiful woman - so go after her and leave me the f-k alone!

Everyone wants the prettiest people so competition is obviously going to be high but if you make your bed you'd better damn well lie in it!

Nessa, before I go on let me first say that I am extremely sorry that you were hurt this way and very much wish you hadn't had to go through this experience.

However, the harsh truth of the matter is that, socially, your friend was not doing anything wrong - except clearly being overly blunt/insensitive (although it doesn't sound to me like he was being deliberately vindictive).

A friend with benefits (or 'FWB') is exactly that. A friend, plus the benefits. If there is love/anything more than simple physical attraction on either side then the relationship is not an FWB relationship.

When people enter into an FWB relationship there is a strict unspoken social code that basically the physical side of the friendship is completely separate from the feelings side, a.k.a. it is a purely physical benefit for both parties, a sort of convenience thing. Both parties are assumed to have entered into the FWB relationship fully aware of this and not to be expecting anything else from it.

That your friend has told you he finds you physically attractive but he isn't romantically attracted to you is what is expected of an FWB. He would have assumed you considered him in the same way. Saying he is not emotionally attracted to you is not an insult, or an implication that you are ugly (as he has told you he finds you physically attractive). It is possible for people to feel affection towards another person in a platonic sense plus also be physically attracted to them while not being romantically attracted to him. This is actually the triangular theory of love (all different kinds of love consist of a combination of three components; physical attraction, platonic affection, and romantic attraction - but I digress).

It does seem he is a little block headed if he hasn't picked up on your hurt and upset, but to be honest he probably would be quite confused by your reaction to him simply saying out loud what in his mind was known to both of you from the start. From one point of view it could even be construed that you have done HIM a disservice by being an equal partner in what was agreed by both of you to be an FWB type relationship, while actually harbouring deeper feelings for him and concealing them from him - a form of dishonesty (although as you clearly don't understand the nature of an FWB this wouldn't have been intentional on your part).

I have had, and still have, occasional FWBs, and the physical side of the relationship is physical only - I would be very angry if a male friend entered into an FWB with me in a deceptive attempt to get emotionally closer to me when I had made it clear that I wanted a friendship only with occasional physical benefits if/when it suited us, and then had the hide to verbally abuse me for not returning those feelings.

I hope this makes sense to you.


As an aside,


Regarding the love thing, some friends do tell other friends they love them without meaning it in a romantic way (like how you'd say I love you to a sibling or a parent sort of thing, in a platonic sense) (although depending on the individual and context this can be a bit of a grey area, so he may have done the wrong thing/stepped out of bounds by saying that to you).

^ to briefly add to the above:

Basically, you should only ever enter an FWB relationship with someone if you a. are completely certain and secure that your feelings towards them are platonic/you are disinterested in being in a relationship with them (despite physical attraction), and b. you are not expecting anything more from them than friendship, and desiring anything more from them than platonic companionship and physical gratification.



I am sorry that it is wordy but I really hope you read what I have written.

In my opinion he has broken the FWB rules as he has said he loves me on two occasions so he is not sticking to the contract either.

Plus he's not even any good as a friend so I am getting nothing out of the 'deal'

As I said, telling someone you love them isn't necessarily breaking the contract (as close friends sometimes will say that - I've had that sort of friendship with a few close male friends and my best female friends) however it is a grey area.

If it's not a good friendship/you're not getting anything out of it then I recommend cutting ties and moving on as you would with any bad friendship. There is no point emotionally tearing yourself up about it and sending angry emails, although I know it feels satisfying. Technically he hasn't really done anything wrong or at least anything clearly wrong.

I think that most people with Aspergers don't have a proper understanding of FWB's which can be dangerous. It's important to understand/learn the social conventions behind any sort of friendship or relationship as best we can before entering into one.

Maybe you should be asking yourself what did you expect?

If he wasnt that good of a friend and you were just in it for the sex it sounds like you two had similar motives.

He did deceive you for whatever reasons he had at the time by telling you that he loved you, I ll give you that

To be 100% completely honest, I will admit that once I told an FWB I loved him at a time I shouldn't have. He had said he loved me first and there was this immense pressure on me to reciprocate. I didn't feel like I meant it at the time but it made me understand how easy it is to cross that line. I would feel a lot worse about it if I didn't feel that he is a selfish and fairly manipulative sort of person (who falls in and out of love with people every week so I doubt he meant it in a very serious way), although he's entertaining to talk to as he's fairly intellectual so I get something out of it I guess. Probably not worth my time all in all but sometimes it's very hard to break ties with people, especially if they're long term friendships.

Well that's a contradiction straight away.

It seems obvious to me that you got attached to a FWB with the other person clearly understanding how an FWB system works and kept non-attached and honest with you. I cannot see what he has done wrong here.

FWB doesn't work. You have to separate and compartmentalize sex and friendship. You have to split the two which are inherently whole. If you're a sensitive person, that's not healthy for you emotionally -- and often it can't be done. You will end up having feelings for the person, because sex itself is an intimate act, and it draws from the very same brain chemicals.

What nearly always happens is the girl thinks the guy is interested in her, and all of the events leading up to sex have the feel of a relationship. Then, after sex, the guy won't commit to the idea of a relationship and proposes FWB or takes a "we'll see" attitude to the possibility of a relationship developing. The girl then thinks the guy likes her, but that more time needs to pass. It's as good as a relationship for many girls, especially with this idea that he'll "come around" in a short while. But the guy doesn't usually - because the type of guys who do this quite simply aren't the type to get too involved with people emotionally. The guy will place the girl on a "shelf" and indulge the woman's desire for their relationship to be "more" by hanging out with her, just enough to keep the sex arrangement going. The guy will talk to her every day, feigning the motions of a relationship. And sometimes he's just a douche and is doing this with a few other women, too.

Men are more capable of doing this FWB thing - so it's more of a man's fantasy to have a FWB interaction with women.
Most women turn out regretting it after the fact.

Eh, I've had very few problems with FwB or casual sex and can look back on those encounters with either fond memories or no hard feelings at all. It's whenever it's gotten more personal and more 'romancy' that the fun factor rapidly decreased. I really don't connect sex with love in my head and am a lot more comfortable in my skin with the former than the latter. Much rather wake up physically sore after a bout of good sex with someone who I don't mind will stay or not than wake up emotionally sore after months of "relationship."

Bear in mind that I'm 46, I've got Aspergers Syndrome that was only diagnosed at age 34
and the whole 'FWB' thing is new to me

All my previous relationships have been of a bf/gf nature and I have lived with several former bf's
ie standard bf/gf relationships is all I know in terms of ongoing relationships

The FWB thing is just a major head-f-k - it wants to be ongoing but gives none of the security
of a proper bf/gf relationship

Also there's still been jealousy which I find most unfair ie I was expected to be exclusive and not even talk about other men

I don't have many people to talk to so obviously someone who is prepared to chat all day online is going to seem very attractive to me

I knew I had stepped over the FWB boundary when I had strong feelings towards this person and told him I loved him

he never said I couldn't say it, he said it was a nice thing to say but he didn't say it back and as a result I felt a lot of emotional pain

I was too attached to be able to break free though

Each time he upset me by saying something thoughtless or acting in an uncaring, seemingly cruel and manipulative manner we'd have a row and I'd try and cut contact but it never lasted as one of us would make contact again

In my opinion he is either ASD or some kind of mild sociopath

He's definitely manipulataive whereas I'm the opposite

It feels like I just keep getting f-ked over by him and left reeling then he wants me to jsut forget how bad he's made me feel and
pick up where we left off!

People on here are talking as if they have loads of friends that they have sex with as and when the urge takes them
ie they have access to numerous sophisticated social relationships and friendships

I don't!

I like to have someone to talk to each day and I did like having the sex but it was friendship that was the main thing and when he did things that upset me it made me think 'this person is not my friend' - he just pretends to be to get sex from me

Then later last year I started giving him money as he's always running out and often not got enough for heating or food and this would make me feel even more used when he'd upset me

Trying to tell him to leave me alone by email earlier today left me crying and feeling awful as it was like I was being expected to agree to go back to being treated badly again

Now I've given up and we've resumed communication I feel better but it's back to square one again!

I feel I'm permanently trapped and have no idea what my real feelings are

Last edited by nessa238 on 16 Jan 2013, 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.