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vermontsavant
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08 Jul 2015, 3:34 am

to me i put little stake or meaning in mear words.i dont care what people call me.

but philosophicaly i like Amy Sequenzia's theory on indentity first language.


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MiLK
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08 Jul 2015, 3:38 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
MiLK wrote:
I am not insisting, I am suggesting - I am still leaving you the choice. I gave the reasons why I prefer person first language above the phrase: "I have autism". I sometimes say this phrase myself, too, because it is so engrained into the language. To me and many others within the autism spectrum it has something to do with a disease-view on autistic persons.

Accusing someone of offense mongering is a rather aggressive way for someone to tell someone else that their opinion is wrong. I'm not quite happy with that. Let's just keep it decent. Mongering is very negative and appears like I want to create some angry mob. I just very much dislike something that I believe puts me into the corner of being ill, so therefore I take personal offense on the phrase, but I won't stop you from using it. That would go too far.



I am being decent. I'm simply telling you directly how I feel about the whole thing.

As for offense mongering being a rather aggressive way to tell someone that their opinion is wrong, well you were the one who used the phrase "offense mongering" and said it wasn't that. I said yes it was. Why accuse me of using an aggressive way to say something when I'm simply repeating your exact words back to you except I'm saying that yes, it is what you said it wasn't. If you don't like the phrase offense mongering then don't bring it up the first time, it's one a phrase I would have thought of.

You used the word first, you brought it up, and now you are telling me how I shouldn't use it in response to you?

Do you not see the complete irony in all of this? You are upset over the phrase "having autism" and then you use the phrase "offense mongering" and I used it back to you in my response to your post and now you are offended by the phrase you used to me and then go on to explain to me how it's not something that I should say? Do you read what you write at all?

I want to know where Ashton Kutcher is because I swear to God I must be being punked right now. Do you honestly not see this? Really?

The irony of this is going to attract hipsters from all four corners of the world you know.

I mean, just, wow. This is not be being ugly or mean, this is me being absolutely and completely floored.



Dear OliveOilMom,

Could you please read the following quote taken from your first post on this topic and note the words that are bolded, underlined and in italics for highlighting purposes?:

OliveOilMom wrote:
[...]but I did start in Leviticus which is the obvious starting point for that one, and went from there and by the time I was done with the verses and interpretations that sounded extremely accurate and not by saying that the original Greek or Aramaic or whatever language meant something different and only going by the English words in there, I proved that not only does the Bible say that women should let men do them in the behind but that if she says no, she doesn't trust in Jesus and isn't saved. Seriously. Of course I didn't believe it said that, he didn't believe it said that, and his gf got a good laugh out of it but told him it's still exit only down there. However, it was very persuading because I used exactly the same type of persuasion and spin that the offense mongers use to show us how anything and everything is offensive.


The use of the phrase was used by you first.

Before you say "but I used offense mongers and I didn't use offense mongering", well, what do offense mongers do? Don't they subject themselves to "offense mongering"?

OliveOilMom wrote:
One more thing please. It's not simply a personality trait. Personality traits do not have physical side effects which can be severe. Autism does.


I would also be very happy with neurological difference. There is indeed co-morbidity with many other disabilities but as far as I know it isn't "autism" that causes it. These are caused by other conditions and can be diagnosed as such. There is still a lot to learn about "autism" and whatever can be defined as "autism". Since many of us in the spectrum are not being affected by it physically the relation between "autism" and physical disability isn't a straightforward one. Sensory issues can be very disabling but they do not cause physical damage as such.

Moreover, I have read blogs from people who are disabled and autistic. Many of them identify them as being autistic rather than "having autism". Amy Sequenzia is one of them.



OliveOilMom
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08 Jul 2015, 3:42 am

Densaugeo wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
As for offense mongering being a rather aggressive way to tell someone that their opinion is wrong, well you were the one who used the phrase "offense mongering" and said it wasn't that. I said yes it was. Why accuse me of using an aggressive way to say something when I'm simply repeating your exact words back to you except I'm saying that yes, it is what you said it wasn't. If you don't like the phrase offense mongering then don't bring it up the first time, it's one a phrase I would have thought of.


I see the irony in spending so many words to say this isn't important.

Language is more important than you seem to think. There's a reason why political groups focus on terminology, and that's because changing terminology causes social change.


He used the phrase himself! I simply repeated it. Then he got offended. About the phrase, and proceeded to tell me why it shouldn't be said. After he use it himself for the first time in this conversation, and I only repeated it to him in my answer.

Some words are important, yes. Other words and other silly little twists of language are not.

Of course if phrasing something a particular way offends a particular person and they ask me not to say it that way then I certainly won't say it that way around them, or I'll try not to. But researching what might offend someone and might not and going so far as to psychoanalyze it and explain to someone why they should be offended by the phrase, using the psychology behind your conclusion to justify it is going entirely too far.

If you have to explain to somebody why they should be offended by something that doesn't offend them or most other people, then you are going overboard.

It's gotten to the point where a phrase reminds us of another phrase with another meaning so we take offense at the original one because it might sound like something else.

If you can't see the absolute silliness in this, then I don't know what to tell you.


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MiLK
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08 Jul 2015, 3:45 am

OliveOilMom:

Try to read my previous post, please.



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08 Jul 2015, 3:47 am

MiLK wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
MiLK wrote:
I am not insisting, I am suggesting - I am still leaving you the choice. I gave the reasons why I prefer person first language above the phrase: "I have autism". I sometimes say this phrase myself, too, because it is so engrained into the language. To me and many others within the autism spectrum it has something to do with a disease-view on autistic persons.

Accusing someone of offense mongering is a rather aggressive way for someone to tell someone else that their opinion is wrong. I'm not quite happy with that. Let's just keep it decent. Mongering is very negative and appears like I want to create some angry mob. I just very much dislike something that I believe puts me into the corner of being ill, so therefore I take personal offense on the phrase, but I won't stop you from using it. That would go too far.



I am being decent. I'm simply telling you directly how I feel about the whole thing.

As for offense mongering being a rather aggressive way to tell someone that their opinion is wrong, well you were the one who used the phrase "offense mongering" and said it wasn't that. I said yes it was. Why accuse me of using an aggressive way to say something when I'm simply repeating your exact words back to you except I'm saying that yes, it is what you said it wasn't. If you don't like the phrase offense mongering then don't bring it up the first time, it's one a phrase I would have thought of.

You used the word first, you brought it up, and now you are telling me how I shouldn't use it in response to you?

Do you not see the complete irony in all of this? You are upset over the phrase "having autism" and then you use the phrase "offense mongering" and I used it back to you in my response to your post and now you are offended by the phrase you used to me and then go on to explain to me how it's not something that I should say? Do you read what you write at all?

I want to know where Ashton Kutcher is because I swear to God I must be being punked right now. Do you honestly not see this? Really?

The irony of this is going to attract hipsters from all four corners of the world you know.

I mean, just, wow. This is not be being ugly or mean, this is me being absolutely and completely floored.



Dear OliveOilMom,

Could you please read the following quote taken from your first post on this topic and note the words that are bolded, underlined and in italics for highlighting purposes?:

OliveOilMom wrote:
[...]but I did start in Leviticus which is the obvious starting point for that one, and went from there and by the time I was done with the verses and interpretations that sounded extremely accurate and not by saying that the original Greek or Aramaic or whatever language meant something different and only going by the English words in there, I proved that not only does the Bible say that women should let men do them in the behind but that if she says no, she doesn't trust in Jesus and isn't saved. Seriously. Of course I didn't believe it said that, he didn't believe it said that, and his gf got a good laugh out of it but told him it's still exit only down there. However, it was very persuading because I used exactly the same type of persuasion and spin that the offense mongers use to show us how anything and everything is offensive.


The use of the phrase was used by you first.

Before you say "but I used offense mongers and I didn't use offense mongering", well, what do offense mongers do? Don't they subject themselves to "offense mongering"?

OliveOilMom wrote:
One more thing please. It's not simply a personality trait. Personality traits do not have physical side effects which can be severe. Autism does.


I would also be very happy with neurological difference. There is indeed co-morbidity with many other disabilities but as far as I know it isn't "autism" that causes it. These are caused by other conditions and can be diagnosed as such. There is still a lot to learn about "autism" and whatever can be defined as "autism". Since many of us in the spectrum are not being affected by it physically the relation between "autism" and physical disability isn't a straightforward one. Sensory issues can be very disabling but they do not cause physical damage as such.

Moreover, I have read blogs from people who are disabled and autistic. Many of them identify them as being autistic rather than "having autism". Amy Sequenzia is one of them.



OMG, I did! You are absolutely right, I did. I'll be damned. It doesn't sound like anything I'd say and I had completely forgotten saying that. I apologize. You are right about that one and I'm wrong. Again, my apology. It's been a very long day and night but that isn't an excuse.

I do apologize about that part and feel like a complete and total idiot for forgetting my own words and it is funny how I went off about it and you have plenty of right to laugh at me about it, in fact I'm laughing at me right now, so that's cool, but I stand by my other position about going overboard with the offense. I really do. Not the offense about fear mongering, the offense about having autism and the whole psychology behind being offended by it. And the study to begin with.


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OliveOilMom
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08 Jul 2015, 3:48 am

MiLK wrote:
OliveOilMom:

Try to read my previous post, please.



I just did and I just answered it. I read a post and then reply to it if I have something to say. Then I read the next one. I don't read them all and then reply at once. I can't remember everything I'm going to say when I do that.


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My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

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Densaugeo
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08 Jul 2015, 12:14 pm

I see a lot of irony in this thread :D

I'll agree that claiming offence isn't the best way to change language. It's much better to ask nicely without accusing people of wrongdoing, which appears to be the goal of this study - refer to people as wish to be referred to, without resorting to rhetorical cudgels.



Anachron
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08 Jul 2015, 12:39 pm

I do not like the "Disorder" part of ASD.

I view us as another race that is not distinguishable by skin color.

Whatever word is used, the way people take it, will depend on thier individual knowlege and understanding.



SocOfAutism
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19 Jul 2015, 10:52 am

Anachron wrote:
I do not like the "Disorder" part of ASD.

I view us as another race that is not distinguishable by skin color.

Whatever word is used, the way people take it, will depend on thier individual knowlege and understanding.


I agree with this. I struggled with terminology when I started writing my thesis (Autism Disclosure in the Workplace). It is something that matters to ME and something I feel will matter to participants, but my university has not seemed to understand why it was important. So I had to write extra sections to explain. I think it's dangerous to say "person with autism" because it's like saying "person with blackness" or "person with gayness." Attempts have been made to remove gayness and blackness from people, unsuccessfully, and the same is true for autism. Autism is a set of specific characteristics or attributes used to describe a oneself or another person in comparison to a majority population. That's my definition and it fits in with my research area, critical autism studies.

I say "autistic person" or "person on the autism spectrum" and although I casually say "neurotypical" I do not use this in my academic writing. I say "non autistic" or "not autistic." I only say ASD to say "diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder" or something similar.



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19 Jul 2015, 4:20 pm

I don't care about the terms.
All the terms tested in the paper are fine by me.


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20 Jul 2015, 10:13 am

I work for an autism charity and we use the term Autism Spectrum Condition(s) ASC instead of the usual 'D' word. I like it and use it everywhere; it often provokes a discussion, "Don't you mean ASD?" "Well actually, No....."

I tend to change my self reference depending upon who the company is. When talking with complete strangers I tend to use "Person on the Autism Spectrum" as the main problem with labels is the other persons perception of that label, what that equates to in their head. With my colleagues and people who I have built a link with I often use the term "Aspie" as this is a light-hearted phrase to me and implies that it isn't something to get too worked up about.

I must confess that if I am feeling a bit 'naughty' and filled with devilment, then I have used the phrase "I am an autistic man!" Now it must be said that this has usually been directed at people who have told me that I MUST ALWAYS use the person first wording. That flicks a switch in my head that usually says, "Oh really?......" and I then give them a lecture about the fact that autism pervades everything I do as it is such a fundamental part of me and as such I assert my right to self-define in any way I choose. That often leads to an awkward silence and shuffling of feet. This isn't just about being awkward, I aim to challenge the orthodox that states that Neurotypical people decide how we are perceived. I was asked to leave a training session once when the person, who had a certificate in autism don't you know, kept talking about how we needed to be "raising awareness of autistics!" I asked her to clarify what she meant as I was autistic and wondered what she wanted me to be more aware of. It was when I suggested she possibly meant neurodiversity, or ASC, acceptance that she asked me to leave as I was clearly a trouble-maker. Sadly the irony was totally lost on her, but sadly she continued to ply her trade as an 'expert' and took money from organisations who wanted to improve their equality training scope.

I do use the term Neurodiverse a lot too. It is interesting actually, as I often state that being Neurodiverse doesn't require a person to reside on any spectrum or have received a diagnosis. Non diagnosed people tend to like that a lot as it points more towards a 'positive' quirky difference rather than 'autistic' which is still shrouded in negativity. Our experiences are often very far from being quirky, but it puts a person in a more receptive frame of mind to then explain and discuss some of the issues/challenges we can face.

Words are the key to this; we should never forget that and use them to our advantage wherever possible.


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