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techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jul 2015, 9:17 am

and I suppose anywhere else... for the more ideologue of us to live with a floating impression that the rest of the 7 billion people on this earth are replica images (behaving or misbehaving versions) of themselves in terms of how they think or react to their situations and environments? In its even more chronic cases the whole world and underlying realities of the universe might hang in the balance of their every thought, discovery, and change of opinion on one thing or another?

I might be a hermetic but I'm feeling like that's just TOO much magic for me to hold a candle to.


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25 Jul 2015, 10:36 pm

Of the billion with internet access, for most it is economic not intellect.

It is more like most live in the past, and coming to the present thins out the ranks quickly.

Current events is a rehash of TV News, and very few are thinking about the meaning of now and way less about the direction, or directions, we are going.

People posting on PPR on WP are not a random sample of humanity. PPR is a slippery subject, but Science and Technology shows an educated and thinking population. They know the work in the field, and can speculate about it's meaning and possible future.

Magic is, thoughts do turn into reality, but who is doing the thinking gives you the eradication of Small Pox, or of the population of Rwanda.

I have read that you have dug deeply into magic. It is real to me, from other points of view.

No one ever Invented anything. It was always there, they were just the first to ask the right questions, and look with new eyes. As such, I know the undiscovered world is larger than the one known.

It is different things to different people, but some mapping is possible. Over the history of The United States, over six million Patents have been granted, and a requirement is it is new knowledge, first shown by the applicant.

About one on a hundred is a chronic reader. About one in a hundred owns an Art Print.

Those who have written or painted are less than one in a thousand. Those any good at it, one in ten thousand.

One in ten thousand might cover those who produce in any creative field, and most of those fields are not about the fabric of reality.

Give that one in a hundred thousand, ten thousand in a billion, and we have 70,000 mucking about trying to poke holes in reality. Many of those are Academics.

For those who it is not by training, coming as a gift or curse, less than ten thousand who have a natural deviant perception that cause them to trip over unsecured reality, and then the perception to know that is not how it was.

Reality is something that has been force fed us since birth. Like the slit that shows waves or particles, how much of our perception is culture imposed?

There are too many good reports of things that do not fit. UFOs, people who have vanished in plain sight of others, near dead people returning as someone else, the common stories of Witches and Shamans. Diverse cultures seeing and describing the same other world.

There is a gate that leads beyond, and traffic flows both ways.

Finding it may be psychic, but the thing it's self is a physical reality.

It is beyond our life, death, reincarnation, Alien Grays in saucers pop in and out.

Like Invention, it was always there, thousands or millions saw something, then one saw how it worked.

The unknown is much larger than the known, and all our Social Structures want to limit questioning.

For most turning lead into gold was the quest, but there are many forms of lead and gold.

Finding the obvious reality before our eyes has proven to be one of the hardest arts.



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26 Jul 2015, 12:00 am

Generally ideologues appeal to our greed, and not our morals or principals. They tell us "this is what this ideology can do for you".

Sometimes the ideologues get confused when people's motivation is something other than greed.

Examples:
James Carville: Why do people vote against their interests?
http://thehill.com/opinion/james-carvil ... -interests

Why Do People Vote Against Their Own Best Interests?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerry-mye ... 85414.html

Why do people vote against their own interests?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8474611.stm

How Republicans Get Americans To Vote Against Their Own Self Interest
https://www.datalounge.com/thread/13381 ... f-interest



techstepgenr8tion
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26 Jul 2015, 10:27 am

Heh, in a lot of ways I was really considering my OP question in relationship to politics and how people model and predict - often times with significant distortion - the current and future behavior of people around them based on certain conditions. I see the scope of the conversation went a lot more profound than that but that's fine. :)

Inventor wrote:
Reality is something that has been force fed us since birth. Like the slit that shows waves or particles, how much of our perception is culture imposed?

There are too many good reports of things that do not fit. UFOs, people who have vanished in plain sight of others, near dead people returning as someone else, the common stories of Witches and Shamans. Diverse cultures seeing and describing the same other world.

There is a gate that leads beyond, and traffic flows both ways.

Finding it may be psychic, but the thing it's self is a physical reality.

It is beyond our life, death, reincarnation, Alien Grays in saucers pop in and out.

Like Invention, it was always there, thousands or millions saw something, then one saw how it worked.

The unknown is much larger than the known, and all our Social Structures want to limit questioning.

For most turning lead into gold was the quest, but there are many forms of lead and gold.

Finding the obvious reality before our eyes has proven to be one of the hardest arts.


With that I think the thing we'll have to do is examine and try to model the different layers, see what can be done with it and can't be done. Any of the occult metaphysics I studied seemed to suggest that yes, you create your own reality and yes, you can be delusional - which sounds like a horrific degree of contradition unless there are a whole list of fundamental dynamics that you have no say in. When people have passive experiences like being overwhelmed by synchronicities that can be a sign that a person is finding rhythm with something larger than themselves, when people see UFO's, cryptoids, cryptoids in UFO's, that could very well be a rip of sorts in the objective/subjective boundary. One thing that does interest me at least - UFO's can be photographed, other things like the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima or also famously the physical objects that Yogis in India can supposedly create by thinking - equally non-photogenic.

I'd just like to think that the people who are willing to research this stuff and take the jokes will gain enough funding to really be able to experiment and add meaningful clarity to it. Too much smut gets passed off as truth these days in those corridors and part of why most people don't even want to go there or think about it is because the first thing they'll run into is miles new age diarrhea.


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techstepgenr8tion
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26 Jul 2015, 10:43 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Generally ideologues appeal to our greed, and not our morals or principals. They tell us "this is what this ideology can do for you".

Sometimes the ideologues get confused when people's motivation is something other than greed.

Examples:
James Carville: Why do people vote against their interests?
http://thehill.com/opinion/james-carvil ... -interests

Why Do People Vote Against Their Own Best Interests?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerry-mye ... 85414.html

Why do people vote against their own interests?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8474611.stm

How Republicans Get Americans To Vote Against Their Own Self Interest
https://www.datalounge.com/thread/13381 ... f-interest


I was thinking in terms of utopian fantasies, believing everyone would just get along if 'x' happened, or believing that certain things that happened in some countries could never happen in another under the same circumstances (ie. such as having poor or no concept of the 'thin veil of society' and how necessities of the human condition can chew that to bits).

As for why people vote against their own interests (and actually do rather than an ideologue just perceiving it that way) I can think of a couple reasons a) the least noxious party to chose from has several bitter pills they have to swallow b) an overarching need for long term security trumps short-term gain.

In the US we really don't have a lot of choices in politics, we have exactly two, and we're watching those two behave increasingly like one, and from that perspective it seems. One question that might be a good one is whether Republicans are more aware of their voting sacrifices than Democrats are at the time that their voting - and it could be that articles like the ones you posted don't get written by conservatives about liberals or Republicans about Democrats because there's a much more umbrella '1st-stage thinkers' (coined by Thomas Sowell) type of assessment back in the other direction which seems to model the behavior of the more specific quesions like why they'd vote against their own best interest.


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26 Jul 2015, 1:52 pm

Why make the question so needlessly complicated?

ALL humans tend to project themselves onto others.

So why would "ideologues" be an exception?



techstepgenr8tion
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26 Jul 2015, 1:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Why make the question so needlessly complicated?

ALL humans tend to project themselves onto others.

So why would "ideologues" be an exception?

Because you don't get a handle on things unless you're willing to analyze their components. If science took the attitude you're suggesting all of Europe, the UK, US, and the commonwealths would be under either Vatican or Anglican religious law today.


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26 Jul 2015, 5:59 pm

The Greeks who proposed Democracy also saw it's limits.

It will not work for more than five thousand, because that is as many as anyone can identify. The Polis, my city.

Second, rule by the many will vote for lower taxes and higher benefits, and bankrupt the State.

The State will still exist, and resort to harsh measures to survive.

An elected official can claim it was just their job, where a King or Tyrant has to take responsibility.

For a Democracy to exist, it has to vote against it's own best interest, give more money and power to the State.

For the State to continue, it has to get the most votes from the disposal of income.

Low level Welfare and Military excess follows, with productive Merchants, healthy families and farmers getting less than they give, and being taxed more to buy votes from the non productive.

Democracy destroys the core of the nation.

Making the Soil Productive, supporting strong families having many children, government support of Merchants and Industrial producers, makes a country strong, rich, and Fascist, National Socialism works.

Fascism destroys the parasitic and degenerate core of the nation.

Kings and elected Dictators try to moderate between the extremes, but that is everything we have.

We are way into the worst end of the Democratic illness.

Our Parasite in Chief, has been spending a half trillion more than income in the good years, and has racked up more debt than all Presidents before him combined.

At twenty trillion the interest on the debt starts to equal tax income.

Welcome to the Weimar Republic. All of their public employees were promised pensions and health care.

Sic Simper Demonica.



techstepgenr8tion
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26 Jul 2015, 6:20 pm

Inventor wrote:
Our Parasite in Chief, has been spending a half trillion more than income in the good years, and has racked up more debt than all Presidents before him combined.

At twenty trillion the interest on the debt starts to equal tax income.

Welcome to the Weimar Republic. All of their public employees were promised pensions and health care.

Sic Simper Demonica.

I think what really made me nervous years ago, nervous and much more likely to vote Republican than not (albeit see what that got us with GWB), is watching the whole west get into the same kind of debt we are - ie. much of Europe also between 80% to 100% of GDP in debt. Shinzo Abe seemed to be a bright and shining star in leading Japan with 200%+. Watching people's behavior on it is just bizarre.

It's utterly mystifying as well that anyone who brings up that national debts are a consequential thing rather than magic money with no consequence is anti-poor, anti-veteran, anti-minority, anti-gay, etc. etc.. I'd never consider myself a fundamentalist, nor a nondenominational, I can't even consider myself a Catholic because the last time I went to mass the Apostles and Nicean Creeds made me sick - I'm at least glad that I can sort the good stuff from the poison pills but back to my point, I'm really a social liberal in most senses just that I tend to see economic liberalism and neo-liberalism as so batisht crazy and so abundantly obvious in it's psychosis that it's really deeply frightening that you get people arguing this stuff down with Keynes - a guy whose theories were about an equilibrium by scraping the peaks off of economic rallies to fill in the troughs, not eternal deficit spending.

It's like we uncategorically don't want reality - we're boycotting it and want to ride the dream all the way downhill until it blows up at the bottom. It's like Jonestown Guyana with everyone drinking the Koolaid on a much bigger scale.


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26 Jul 2015, 7:39 pm

National debt is different from individual household debt and is considered differently by the markets.


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26 Jul 2015, 8:08 pm

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/ec ... l-debt.asp

Quote:
Given that the national debt has recently grown faster than the size of the American population, it is fair to wonder how this growing debt affects average individuals. While it may not be obvious, national debt levels directly affect people in at least five direct ways.

First, as the national debt per capita increases, the likelihood of the government defaulting on its debt service obligation increases, and therefore the Treasury Department will have to raise the yield on newly issued treasury securities in order to attract new investors. This reduces the amount of tax revenue available to spend on other governmental services, because more tax revenue will have to be paid out as interest on the national debt. Over time, this shift in expenditures will cause people to experience a lower standard of living, as borrowing for economic enhancement projects becomes more difficult.

Second, as the rate offered on treasury securities increases, corporations operating in America will be viewed as riskier, also necessitating an increase in the yield on newly issued bonds. This in turn will require corporations to raise the price of their products and services in order to meet the increased cost of their debt service obligation. Over time, this will cause people to pay more for goods and services, resulting in inflation.

Third, as the yield offered on treasury securities increases, the cost of borrowing money to purchase a home will also increase, because the cost of money in the mortgage lending market is directly tied to the short-term interest rates set by the Federal Reserve, and the yield offered on treasury securities issued by the Treasury Department. Given this established interrelationship, an increase in interest rates will push home prices down, because prospective home buyers will no longer qualify for as large of a mortgage loan, since they will have to pay more of their money to cover the interest expense on the loan that they receive. The result will be more downward pressure on the value of homes, which in turn will reduce the net worth of all home owners.

Fourth, since the yield on U.S. Treasury securities is currently considered a risk-free rate of return and as the yield on these securities increases, risky investments such as corporate debt and equity investments will lose appeal. This phenomenon is a direct result of the fact that it will be more difficult for corporations to generate enough pre-tax income to offer a high enough risk premium on their bonds and stock dividends to justify investing in their company. This dilemma is known as the crowding out effect, and tends to encourage the growth in the size of the government, and the simultaneous reduction in the size of the private sector.

Fifth, and perhaps most importantly, as the risk of a country defaulting on its debt service obligation increases, the country loses its social, economic and political power. This in turn makes the national debt level a national security issue.

The Bottom Line
The national debt level is one of the most important public policy issues. When debt is used appropriately, it can be used to foster the long-term growth and prosperity of a country. However, the national debt must be evaluated in an appropriate manner, such as comparing the amount of interest expense paid to other governmental expenditures or by comparing debt levels on a per capita basis.


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26 Jul 2015, 11:33 pm

Trump got me when he proposed a one time tax on capital of 14.2% which would pay off the National Debt.

One, our money would be gold. Not real gold, but a debt free country with our economy, our money would rule.

Taking America out of the debt game, Corporate Securities would pay less, could raise more, which translates to higher pay for more workers, and lower costs for goods and services.

Mortgages and other personal debt is set at Treasuries plus points. Rates would decline as more capital seeks secure investments.

From there we could place a 1% tax on Securities purchase. It would dampen short term speculation, cost $1,000 on a $100,000 mortgage.

All personal income will be subject to Social Security. No cut off at $115,000. If a Small Business pays the whole 15.7%, so does a Hedge Fund. Presently they take their money at long term capital gains rates. Social Security is half of Government spending.

A 1% National Sales Tax, dedicated to a new WPA Publics Works Program.

These things would reduce spending, and increase tax income.

A real National Health Care Program, free, and free education. Europe and Canada might quit badmouthing us.

A minimum Income would cost less than all of the government programs. Abolish poverty.

Fence the border and clear the country of illegals.

The demand for workers will go up so high we will have to empty the prisons and parole them to jobs.

A whole lot of Government Employees will have to find real jobs.

We have not been adding to the National Parks system. Some of them look like a moving parking lot. We have more people, we need more and larger Nature Reserves. This fits with the new WPA Program. Nature does not get to vote, but without them, we die. Some marginal land should be planted in trees and left for a hundred years. I favor a strip a hundred miles wide from The Big Bend to Canada.

We do not have the military we need. We have way too many Generals and need more professional Sergeants. Combat skill is an art of the lower ranks, an art we need to keep.

As a side issue the real troops could run a National Service Army, giving lots of people a year or two of training.

We sent weekend warriors from the National Guard to Afghanistan, six weeks and one weekend a month did not prepare them. A year of National Service for everyone, we would be as unbeatable as the Swiss. We could put ten million in the field.

We can reach these goals and reduce personal and corporate taxes.

No one knows what the future holds, that is why we have to make up a good story and make that much come true.

We can live our fears, or our dreams.



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27 Jul 2015, 1:02 am

beneficii wrote:
National debt is different from individual household debt and is considered differently by the markets.


In either case, your ability to service debt is a major consideration.

The per-taxpayer debt is higher in the usa than in greece, but it's not an emergency here because we can service it. it's an emergency in greece because they can't.

What i owe on my house is substantially more than I earn in a year. Nobody considers this an emergency.

If i owed $5k to a guy named Rudy who is going to break my thumbs if i don't come up with it in 24 hours, that would be an emergency because i don't have and can't really muster that kind of scratch.

Unless i hit up my millionaire brother. Who would b***h and moan and call me names and then wire me the money. Not that i have ever gone to that well before.

FWIW, I figure "having a millionaire brother" counts as white privilege. Though he would argue that he is only a millionaire on paper. It's not like he's scrooge mcduck.