Why is Down Syndrome aborted?

Post Reply New Topic

Are you opposed to the killing of animals, then? Because animals exist too.

You are right. It's because people have evolved into hedonisitic, selfish creatures with a fear/disdain of accountability and responsibility.

Depends on your definition of value. An embryo is not the same as a child and a child is not the same as an adult, legally. Adults have full power and rights. Children are toys for their parents until they become adults themselves, serving only for their personal gain and entertainment until then. Embryo's are not conscious beings so they can be aborted - simple.

Btw, having children is 100% selfish by definition. You do it to make yourself happy. It's not surprising that parents choose to abort defected embryo's. Nobody wants a broken toy, to put it bluntly.

How so? If their life with that child is enriched compared to their life without a child, then they've gained from having that child. The choice isn't to have a child with Down Syndrome or a child without Down Syndrome. It's to have a child with Down Syndrome or no child at all. Sure, they could have another child later, but they can do that regardless of whether they abort or keep the child. I don't see how it matters that 'any human being' will do the same, because there are no other humans they could produce from that pregnancy.



Any evidence? Because the research clearly shows that, on average, parents of kids on the autism spectrum experience a lot more stress and less reward from their kids than parents of kids with Down Syndrome do. Which implies that Down Syndrome kids enrich their parents' lives more than kids on autism spectrum do.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.492.1978&rep=rep1&type=pdf
http://tinyurl.com/hwhk9rj
http://tinyurl.com/zqprggd
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2396580/

Anyway, I'm surprised so many people support aborting Down Syndrome people here. If Autism Speaks gets its way, those same stats will soon apply to autistic people, too. It doesn't matter the disability - even easily repairable cleft lips and usually invisible sex chromosome variations are met with high rates of abortion. They aren't going to care that you think you're better than someone with Down Syndrome. If the embryo is abnormal in any detectable way, most parents will abort.

I'm wondering if that research is including low-functioning autistic children with intellectual disabilities, or if it's including all children with autism spectrum disorders, and if it is, what percentage are low-functioning and intellectually disabled.

Because according to this: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6302a1.htm?s_cid=ss6302a1_w

only about 46% of those with autism spectrum disorders have average to above average IQs (>85) , 31% are intellectually disabled with IQs of 70 or less, and 23% are borderline with IQs from 71- 85.

I'd say it's likely that children with autism along with intellectual disability will cause a lot of parental stress. I didn't read the articles to see if you're correctly interpreting the data, because I can't download all of that onto my device.

Some children even have autism along with Down syndrome.

I wouldn't want any intellectually disabled children. Having to care for a child for the rest of my life, with that child never being able to succeed or care for itself is pointless to me. Reproduction is for the survival and advancement of the species. From an evolutionary standpoint, it's not advantageous to create intellectually disabled offspring.

This also raises a very concerning issue that I've thought about for a long while...the fact that this and some other questionable practices were seen before as solutions to making life easier...ended up as one big "Final Solution" ..Jews weren't the only ones killed by Hitler....in fact someone with Down syndrome was one of the first victims of his campaign of systemic state-sponsored slaughter...and many more disabled people of all races and religions were soon to follow...and I have to say that as both someone who suffers from a disability (maybe not Down syndrome but still), and as a Jew, the fact that we are using disabilities as grounds for abortion is bad enough...but the fact we're considering it "euthanasia" pretty much is another way of saying that people with Down syndrome are "unfit to live"...and it makes me sick, again as a disabled person and as a Jew, that Adolf Hitler's views on what makes a person "fit to live" are being espoused by not only Donald Trump, but the medical profession as well...

The point of procreation is to make offspring that will survive, and go on to create other offspring. None of that has anything to do with being a Jew. Those of Ashkenazi Jewish descent have average IQs much higher than the average for the human population as a whole. In fact, I believe it's one entire standard deviation higher. Hitler was crazy. And people were generally jealous of the success of Jews.

It's not about being unfit to live. It's about having children who are a burden for their entire lives. They burden their parents until either they or their parents die, and then burden their siblings, and the families of their siblings. And the siblings get less attention growing up. They are also a financial burden to the community as a whole.

In nature animals abandon those offspring that are disabled, and humans have done it for thousands of years. Evolution is about survival of the fittest. We aren't doing ourselves any favors by making sure every single severely disabled child is born and cared for, at the expense of many other people's well-being.

Those who want to take on the burden are welcome to do so, but nobody should be forced to do it.

what makes a human valuable? Their job?

I'm also an offspring that can't create other offspring, nor do I want to. I am pointless but I think I deserved a life.

I agree though with the burden thing.

Wrong.

I can tell you right now, people who want to adopt will sign up for a DS infant/child WAY before a child with ASD. Not even close. My friend works in foster care. DS babies, even with major heavy duty medical issues (tube feeding, trach tube) can same day be placed from the hospital into an foster care to adoption setting.

Even with an older child with DS is an easier placement. One child (who was 5, relative died that was he care giver) was photo listed and adopted in less than 4 months, and it took that long because of paper work processing. She has children with ASD who come into the system at 4, and never leave. Their behaviors aren't horrible, just Aspie type stuff. The DS child will get 10-15 inquiries. The ASD kid maybe 6, and after potental parents get more information it drops down to 0-2.

Accomplish? There is a group of DS adults who work at a local fast food restaurant. They do clean up work, bring food out to costumers when needed, one will run register when it gets slow. Everyone loves them. They have worked there for years. People bring them gifts and cards on their birthdays and holidays.

You may say, fast food..phhhhpt! But that is much more than some people have who are on this board. There are so many people here who are under employed, unemployed, with no support system at all, and with family members who are openly hostile to them. Being brilliant with no supports doesn't let your create much.

Those DS works will never create a bridge or figure out particle physic but..

Their families embrace them for who they are. How many Aspies here can say their families total gets who they are, and their limitations?

The school system gives DS (my area) much less crap about supports to the parents.

The community goes out of their way to make DS people feel included. I know of an adult DS drop off center (community based) when the people do enriching things all day long.

Businesses will go out of their way to help a DS person a job, and provided adequate supports.

Not much like that happens in the ASD community around me.

When you are born you have value. Don't be an IQ snob, believing if you have a low IQ, you contribute nothing to society. The DS man working at he fast food place gets up everyone morning, gets ready for work (these workers are pretty high functioning), gets in the transport bus, works 5 hours in a place I absolutely could not, gets a check which has taxes taken out and he can spend on things. There are NTS who can't do that, and the same with ASD.

Ettina, you are right about the level of stress between DS and ASD parents.

DS is no picnic. There can be heavy duty medical and behavior issues. Best case scenario most of the time is a shared home as an adult. Many will need support throughout their lives.

It isn't roses and unicorns.

I have been in the store with my friend and DS son. People will tolerate and actually ask her in a kind way if she needs help when he had a frustration melt down. Can I push your cart to the register? Can I do anything to help? Her son had a trach, and she had people who actually wanted to baby sit when he was a baby up until school age. Church was very welcoming. They went the extra mile to watch him during services so the family could worship. He wasn't an easy child, and sort of a bull head, but my friend said their family never felt exclude or marginalized. R. was invited to lots activities. This is a lower middle class community, and there wasn't money to buy better options.

Ask any parent of an ASD child how much willing help and support they get. It doesn't count if you pay for it.

A lot of times it's *crickets*.

If abortion is an option for genetic abnormalities, it doesn't matter what the reason, most likely that abortion will be done. Behavior to behavior, I seen a nonverbal DS child have a spectacular melt down, and noone gives the parents crap for it. My other friend's barely verbal (IQ is fine) ASD child has the same type of melt down, people give her hell. It's all looks, judgement, no help and sometimes remarks.

A$ does no favors when it pimps, "How Hard Autism Is.." Many people believe it's head banging, screaming, biting and young men who will never have meaningful employment or even move out of the family home. What parent would sign up for that? The same can be said for DS and that exact same above sentence could be written about Down Syndrome, but someone people don't find that child the death of the life they wanted. I'm guessing the reasons could be the child does look different, and there is no guessing that theven child has issues. Also DS is considered NT. They respond to socal cues.

So,

Genetic testing for ASD.. most likely it will be oh hell no.
Genetic testing for DS..it might be a lets explore this, maybe, can I handle this?

ASD might think they win on the IQ brilliant part, but the PR is so bad about caring for anyone on the spectrum, if genetic testing becomes possible ASD numbers will drop like a watermelon lobbed off a roof.

Why do people abort fetuses with DS? Because it's human nature to want a perfect baby. No one (well the majority) wants a defective child. Even animals abandon their defective babies. Even people with disabilities are hoping for a normal child. My husband was hoping for both our kids be normal despite his own disabilities. But the difference is we're humans and we have thoughts so we don't abandon our babies to die but people who adopt are more likely to abandon the baby they were waiting to adopt once they hear the baby suffered birth complications or has some problems in the mother's womb and when you adopt, they won't even tell you about the mother or the baby's medical history or if there was any abuse or neglect or if the mother did drugs or not because they want to get them out of their system. But yet if it's your own child you have given birth too and they do turn out to have something wrong, it's different then they are your own.

I have known people with Down's syndrome and they have very low IQs and their cognition is very limited and they tend to suffer health problems. The successful ones you see who are high functioning and independent are rare and the minority. Even my old friend with DS might be considered high functioning because she is very polite and independent but she still lives with her mom and dad and works part time and goes to activities and has a companion. She receives Social Security. But she can read and write, feed herself, get herself food, talk and have conversations, read chapter books, and I would say she functions around a level of a 11 year old based on how her room looked. Yeah her parents are lucky she is that well and she can be by herself in her room where she likes to be. I don't know if she is depressed because when I saw her, she didn't even want to see me and her mom told me she has gotten very private and stays in her room all the time now. It could be because she knows she will never grow up and be an adult and I grew up and I have kids now and got married and sure we can be childlike but the difference is we can be adults when we have to and she can't. She can't just turn it off and be an adult like we can and her cognition is also limited so it's not like she can learn things and grow like the rest of us can. And she probably knows that about herself. Her parents love her dearly but I don't think I could ever ask them would they have had an abortion if they knew she would turn out that way. But she wasn't this mature and polite 16 years ago so she has grown a lot and speaks more clearly. I think for her condition, where she is now is pretty good and it was her mother who worked very hard to make her be that way. She was also lucky she didn't suffer any health problems.

I suggest that those who think that aborting a fetus that has Down Syndrome is wrong should first adopt a child with Down Syndrome and find out for themselves exactly what it's like (1) to be a parent, and (2) to raise a Down Syndrome child of their own.

I think abortion is a right. It shouldn't have to be justified.

I imagine people abort babies who have disabilities that they themselves would not want to live with. I think if some wizard told me that he was turning back time to 1964 and i could either be born with Downs or not at all I would say not at all. Hence if I were to find out I was pregnant with a Downs baby I would abort because that is what I would have chosen for myself. Maybe most other ladies logic it out the same way.

Also, someone said you can have a normal baby after you have your handicapped baby, and that is usually not true. Most people won't have the time, money, or energy to have another baby when they are raising a handicapped child. Usually if you have a disabled child, that's going to be it, unless you accidentally get pregnant and are against abortion. Some will still voluntarily have other kids but I don't think the majority will.

Yep! 100% true. No one wants to deal with AS kids/people- they are FUNDAMENTALLY NOT a part of society. And society is quite narcissitic in the fact that it wants people that support it like a virus or a meme. Autistics run in the face of all of that- they are anti-society/anti-social because they aren't keyed into social cues and DON"T respond the same way.
Also, if AS people looked physically different I feel like that would help- they would know- Oh- that one's weird there's an obvious reason- easy to pigeon-hole easy to understand= EASY. With AS however.... it's not quite the same. It's hard to deal with and understand AS kids therefore that =s don't want to deal with them. not nice but true.

I think it takes a bunch of types of people to run a society well- I think severely mentally handicaped (but still capable of self care and some independence) are necessary for all of the menial tasks in society- stuff more intelligent people shouldn't (because waste of resources) do /wouldn't do. If a downs person likes asking people "would you like fries with that?" over and over everyday and it makes them happy- and SOMEONE has to do it- then why not? let them do it be productive to society and there you go! I think everyone should contribute to society in some way (yes all people) and I also think people are entitled to a modicum of happiness and wellbeing in life being because they are human and deserve respect and dignity.
However, fetuses aren't people and never will be UNLESS THEY ARE BIRTHED. Until then it is wholly and solely under the jurisdiction of the parents(mostly just the woman though men shouldn't be deciding what a woman births) to deal with what they want to birth- end of story. People need to stop invading other people's wombs and telling them what to do with their genetic material. Basically leave others alone- it's not ur kid so don't bother.