Is BLM really talking about black-on-black crime?
All we do is attack each other here! Why can't we have a nice, amiable discussion about things?
All this fighting is not contributing to anything. It's leading to more and more obfuscation and the use of complex rhetorical devices (as well as these ridiculous quote trees!) designed to prove we are extremely clever, and that we could be slick with each other. None of this attempts to get at the root of the problem. Everything revolves in circles, and we are constantly going back to Square One.
Cops are shooting black people for reasons which are sometimes unjustified.
Black people are victimizing each other left and right.
I think we can agree that both are occurring.
BLM really should address black-on-black crime. If they believe "black lives matter."
Malcolm X certainly addressed it.
I focus my 'attacks' primarily on ideas.
Because some people have some very silly ideas and insist on posting them here.
If the only purpose it serves is to broaden the mind of a single participant in the conversation, that's sufficient for me.
So answer a straight question when it's asked of you. What is your issue with advocacy for "white rights"?
That's a cynical and unhelpful judgement. I suspect that the quote trees are the result of vigorous scrutiny and a desire for order. They may not float your boat, but I personally find it helps to keep things in their proper perspective. Unless you're referring to the Fisking, which I, for one, will not be giving up in a hurry.
The solution to this one is to first give the OP the benefit of the doubt regarding motivation. We've already seen an unfounded implication of racism levied their way. The next step is to take a step back from the triggered auto-response mechanism that's hell-bent on categorising the OP as hateful or bigoted because "buzzword, buzzword, reasons".
Black people are victimizing each other left and right.
I think we can agree that both are occurring.
BLM really should address black-on-black crime. If they believe "black lives matter."
Malcolm X certainly addressed it.
We most certainly can agree that both are occurring, but it would be remiss of me to not point out that cops are also shooting white people, Hispanics and Asians in much the same circumstances and higher numbers (though not per capita). Cops are people. People make mistakes. Many of the wrongful killings can be attributed, mundanely, to simple human error. It would also be remiss of me to ignore the fact that such errors are more likely to occur in areas which the cop in question deems to be more dangerous due to higher rates of criminal activity.
These points are neither unproductive nor obfuscatory, they are legitimate and necessary responses to some of the rhetoric and narratives that have been presented as facts both within this thread and without.
I agree that cops are shooting whites, Hispanics, etc. in a similar manner as they are shooting blacks. There must be a way for cops to stop thinking that every "shiny object" is a gun. There's been too many of these "shiny objects" popping up, providing a pretext for a cop to shoot somebody.
I do agree that cops have to be more vigilant in high-crime areas. But they have to get better training. There has to be more of a "reason" for a cop to shoot somebody, other than the existence of a "shiny object." I'm scared I'm going to be shot myself if some "shiny object" shows up during a traffic stop, and a cop thinks I'm "moving a little too much."
Probably one of the reasons why BLM exists is because of the historic racist relationship between cops and blacks (yes, sometimes involving lynching), and that they fear that a repeat performance is happening. Alas, there are cops who still maintain the old prejudices (Yes, I've heard the expression of these prejudices coming out of cops' mouths, especially when they've had a little too much to drink).
Let me say that it is definite that not all cops are racists; in fact, it's possible that most of them are not racist these days.
I don't like many of the methods which BLM uses, but there is a reason for its existence.
And they should address the reasoning behind black-on-black crime.
If they only look for shiny objects, one day they’re going to be shot with a dull weapon.
_________________
The red lake has been forgotten. A dust devil stuns you long enough to shroud forever those last shards of wisdom. The breeze rocking this forlorn wasteland whispers in your ears, “Não resta mais que uma sombra”.
It's called activism. And the violence was minor. It's not like the Black Panthers going around carrying guns openly, shadowing the police to make sure they aren't doing anything wrong. But I get it, only white people are allowed to do that.
So just ignore the shootings? Ignore the riots? Ignore the hateful rhetoric? Just because they aren't literally declaring war? Where is the logic in that?
You're not going to win. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
No one from BLM is responsible for any shootings. And the so-called riots were nothing like what happened after Michael Brown was shot in Ferguson. In fact it was nothing like what happens after some sports teams win. If it weren't for this outlet, those people might be burning down businesses. By hateful rhetoric, I guess that's comparing police to pigs? Just a sign of disrespect and understandable anger. I know you can't ignore it because black people are speaking out and that's unforgivable in your mind.
You're putting words in my mouth. MLK has nothing to do with BLM. The current state of affairs is not at all the same as it was at the time of the civil rights movement, and you're delusional if you think it is.
It's the same struggle. Exactly the same.
Yes, some progress has been made, and some has been lost (Republicans suppressing voting rights).
It's called activism. And the violence was minor. It's not like the Black Panthers going around carrying guns openly, shadowing the police to make sure they aren't doing anything wrong. But I get it, only white people are allowed to do that.
So just ignore the shootings? Ignore the riots? Ignore the hateful rhetoric? Just because they aren't literally declaring war? Where is the logic in that?
You're not going to win. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
No one from BLM is responsible for any shootings. And the so-called riots were nothing like what happened after Michael Brown was shot in Ferguson. In fact it was nothing like what happens after some sports teams win. If it weren't for this outlet, those people might be burning down businesses. By hateful rhetoric, I guess that's comparing police to pigs? Just a sign of disrespect and understandable anger. I know you can't ignore it because black people are speaking out and that's unforgivable in your mind.
BLM didn't directly order the violence, but plenty of them were happy when it happened, and the outrage about the recent shootings, which were probably justified or at least a gray area, had a lot to do with it.
Stop calling me racist, unless you can point out something specific I said. If you continue doing it I will report you.
_________________
"It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."
- Sherlock Holmes
You're putting words in my mouth. MLK has nothing to do with BLM. The current state of affairs is not at all the same as it was at the time of the civil rights movement, and you're delusional if you think it is.
It's the same struggle. Exactly the same.
Yes, some progress has been made, and some has been lost (Republicans suppressing voting rights).
Some progress? Our commander in chief is black! Are you seriously that deluded that you think only a bit of progress has been made? Discrimination is illegal. It wasn't when MLK was around. Your argument is ridiculous.
_________________
"It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."
- Sherlock Holmes
...But criminals who kill other people are generally deplored , they're not supposed to do it ! Police/etc. who do improper things (And , of course , they're certainly not every po-po .) are not , often , that pursued and have been known to get away with it ~ So , they are concentrating on that .
So Rudy Guliani or Bill O'Reilly/Fox News are spending much time going after black-on-black crime ?
You have a point that , the BLM-ers will take no disagreement at times ~ And , some cases have - additional aspects to them , such as the repots I've seen that the person who was illed in Ferguson who rather started all this had apparently hit - being considerably larger , too - the store-owner he had just stole from , though the BLM-ers will say " Everyone demands he be a perfect angel ! " - Well , that's not a death penalty crime , but what if a white cop the Ferguson dead man's side similarly hit a much smaller black ?
However, this still does not mean that it should be the major focus of BLM. According to mappingpoliceviolence.org, at least 102 unarmed black men were shot and killed by police in 2015. Some of them seem like they were probably justified, some of them seem questionable, and some of them look outright inexcusable. But either way, the fact remains that 102 is not a very large number, especially when compared to the victims of black crime.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... s/table-43
As you can see, the majority of murders and robberies in 2013 were committed by black people, despite them being only 13.2% of the population. They are also disproportionately represented in almost every other category. Not only that, but the leading cause of death for young black males ages 15-34 is homicide, committed largely by other black males. That, to me, seems like a much bigger problem than 102 unjustified and justified shootings.
You would think this would be cause for alarm for a group called "Black Lives Matter". Many people tell me that it is, that they are talking about it, and that I'm just assuming that they can't care about both issues (which I never said). But lets see what the official Black Lives Matter website, founded by the creators of the original hashtag, has to say about that.
http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-mi ... -movement/
Here, they will explain my "misconception" that they don't care about their own people killing each other.
"In Chicago, long maligned for its high rates of intraracial murder, members of the community created the Violence Interrupters to disrupt violent altercations before they escalate."
Apparently Black Lives Matter thinks they can take credit for movements they didn't have anything to do with in order to say they care. Already we're off to a great start.
"However, those who insist on talking about black-on-black crime frequently fail to acknowledge that most crime is intraracial. Ninety-three percent of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Eighty-four percent of white murder victims are killed by other white people."
I acknowledge that most crime is intraracial. That is irrelevant. It's not the fact that black people kill other black people that is the problem; it is the sheer number of black people being killed by other blacks that is startling. Like I said, it's the leading cause of death in black males ages 15-34. Blacks commit more homicides than whites despite being only 13.2% of the population. But BLM conveniently leaves that little tidbit out. Probably because it doesn't fit their narrative that the problem is actually white racism.
"The continued focus on black-on-black crime is a diversionary tactic, whose goal is to suggest that black people don’t have the right to be outraged about police violence in vulnerable black communities, because those communities have a crime problem. The Black Lives Matter movement acknowledges the crime problem, but it refuses to locate that crime problem as a problem of black pathology."
First they call it a diversionary tactic from white racism and then there it is: BLM refuses to admit that the black community should take any responsibility for the crimes committed within their community. Yeah, that certainly sounds like they support talking about solutions.
"Black people are not inherently more violent or more prone to crime than other groups. But black people are disproportionately poorer, more likely to be targeted by police and arrested, and more likely to attend poor or failing schools. All of these social indicators place one at greater risk for being either a victim or a perpetrator of violent crime. To reduce violent crime, we must fight to change systems, rather than demonizing people."
BLM just said the solution is not to demonize people. I guess cops aren't people then, because BLM demonizes the heck out of them.
So there you have it. The official BLM website says it doesn't care about black-on-black crime, because according to them: while it is a teeny problem, the REAL problem is systemic racism. They fail to explain how that is actually the case. But come on, how could you expect that from them? I mean, they're black, and they live in America. They probably don't have much time to think about such things as logic and evidence, what with all the racist white police prowling about, who would love nothing more than to drag them into the street and beat them to death. They're everywhere!
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
You're putting words in my mouth. MLK has nothing to do with BLM. The current state of affairs is not at all the same as it was at the time of the civil rights movement, and you're delusional if you think it is.
It's the same struggle. Exactly the same.
Yes, some progress has been made, and some has been lost (Republicans suppressing voting rights).
Some progress? Our commander in chief is black! Are you seriously that deluded that you think only a bit of progress has been made? Discrimination is illegal. It wasn't when MLK was around. Your argument is ridiculous.
You realize that's what racists say? We can't be a racist country because we have a black president? Jesus Christ.
You're putting words in my mouth. MLK has nothing to do with BLM. The current state of affairs is not at all the same as it was at the time of the civil rights movement, and you're delusional if you think it is.
It's the same struggle. Exactly the same.
Yes, some progress has been made, and some has been lost (Republicans suppressing voting rights).
Some progress? Our commander in chief is black! Are you seriously that deluded that you think only a bit of progress has been made? Discrimination is illegal. It wasn't when MLK was around. Your argument is ridiculous.
You realize that's what racists say? We can't be a racist country because we have a black president? Jesus Christ.
Here you are again, blatantly calling me a racist based on pure conjecture. I hope you know I'm going to go through and report all of your posts that were attacking me or others. Or you can apologize and start addressing the substance of my argument.
_________________
"It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."
- Sherlock Holmes
Supernatural restraint? That's what you call constant, blatant name-calling, repeatedly making insinuations of racism about someone who's said nothing racist, and just generally ignoring the argument being made?
_________________
"It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."
- Sherlock Holmes
Supernatural restraint? That's what you call constant, blatant name-calling, repeatedly making insinuations of racism about someone who's said nothing racist, and just generally ignoring the argument being made?
What do you expect, you throw out a trollish click bait title and expect this conversation not to devolve?
Your arguments are ignorant and racist. Don't be so PC bro, just tellin' it like it is.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,796
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
Are you sure you're 35? You skipped past all the foreplay and went right to the main event. There's a reason the question was addressed to Kraich.
As for how cops are where I am, my experiences have varied from town to town, city to city, country to country. I find that LEOs tend to be less pleasant in poverty-stricken areas, and I can personally attest that having white skin is not a shield against 'thorough' cops.
Which is precisely what they do. How many of the 100 or so black people killed last year by cops were done so because of 'trigger happy racism'? If you wish to have the narrative taken remotely seriously, it's time to provide some supporting data.
Randomly? Are you familiar with the data the cops have on these individuals? Their known associates? Their history? Law enforcement tends to be more proactive in areas of high crime. What might seem heavy-handed to someone who has spent their life in a bubble is often resultant of an environment where police have to be more vigilant regarding their own personal safety and that of others.
You've argued that citizens shouldn't 'have' to be afraid of cops. That cuts both ways.
Although he was crass enough to throw an F-bomb your way, your implication is unjustified. What's more racist? Questioning the motives of a self-described black advocacy group, or bubble-wrapping them against criticism in a way you would not do for a white advocacy group?
As you can see, that's clearly not a problem for some folks here.
The shooting of that therapist - and the subsequent cuffing of him as he bled in the street - is proof of trigger happy racist cops. Aiming at the autistic man, my ass!
And yes, cops randomly harass blacks, as the Minnesota man who was shot in front of his daughter and fiance had been stopped time and again for piddling nonsense that no white driver would have to worry about.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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