How forgiving/trusting are you?

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I had a discussion with my sister earlier about forgiveness. I explained that for me, I have no problem forgiving people. However, if someone has emotionally traumatized me then I can never fully trust them again. Trust and forgiveness are not the same thing to me.

Does anyone else feel this way? Or do you trust someone even if they hurt you deeply? (Like your spouse cheated on you, as an example but you stay with them.)

I've realized that I forgive too easily, but I wouldn't have stayed with my spouse. I would maybe have forgiven him later, but I don't trust easily, so I would never have gotten back with him.

I feel very similar to you. I just stay mad at people for long. I get taken advantage of because of this.

But....the quality of my life is enhanced because I don't have vengeful feelings. Vengeful feelings tend to make people's quality of life very low, indeed.

It's funny. I can feel a deep, deep anger towards somebody that persists indefinitely, and yet if I get the chance to sit down and talk to them civilly the anger very quickly fades away. It's like I'm angry at the concept of the person but I can't stay angry at the actual person, if that makes sense. I want to be friends with people, it's just that so often for whatever reason I can't.

As for trusting, I don't know. It's kind of weird. I'm pretty quick to trust people not to be complete charlatans trying to rip me off. But I seem incapable of trusting people enough to open up to them.

If I ever had a girlfriend I wouldn't be surprised one bit if she cheated on me. I'd be more angry at myself for being dumb enough to think somebody would actually care about me than I would be at her.

in the past i have trusted way too many precious lil "people". believed whatever they told me.

and they did not believe what i told them. even though i was not lying.

forgiveness i am bad at. quite frankly, i hold a lot of intense grudges. for a long time. even things that precious lil "most people" might not have given second thought to.

for example, a former homophobic landlord asked "why did you cut your hair?". and she burst out laughing @ me. with my precious lil "parents" there. all 3 laughed at me out loud. like it was the funniest thing in the world. for "a girl" to wear short hair. (buzz cut). and still to this day, 14 years later, obsess over it several times a day. she asked me that, like she expected the answer was that i was gay. but i ain't gay. i am trans. but she would not have believed that i was trans if i were to have told her. the laws were not out yet anyways. besides, she asked in a judgmental, homophobic way. as if to say that there were good reasons and it was up to her to decide if i had a good reason. she (and other idiots from san diego) were so superficial. seriously? what is so great about liking someone else's haircut and what is so bad about not liking someone else's haircut. seriously the little numskull truly believed that she was so awesome she had veto power over someone else's haircut?

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and then this other time a precious lil "friend" told me i could eat something out her refrigerator. so the next time i went to her apt, i ate something out the refridgerator. but i first asked her boyfriend and he said i could. then the little self-important twat had the nerve to phone me to tell me i ate her precious little noodles. her boyfriend told me i could.

then she told me that whenever i did something she did not "like" she would tell me and she expected me to stop it.

wtf?

what if someone does not "like" it when i continue living? what if someone does not like my autism symptoms?

and then i asked what if i don't like something she did. and she answered, like what. so i said "jaywalking", "off leash dogs", "littering". (and they are all illegal). "people do them all the time!" she had the nerve to tell me condescendingly, while simultaneously jaywalking.

ok, so if "people do them all the time", she can plagiarize? likewise. the world contains more "people" convicted of rape, then the number of Nobel Prize winners in physics. but just b/c the number of participants is more, for one activity, does not make the activity more morally justified.



but i only used those 3 examples to get a feel for her responses. but seriously she did plenty of things i did not like. including but not limited to:

telling me that "i'll probably definitely be there", 6 hours before we agreed to meet. and then just stand me up. "probably definitely be there" like she was the greatest thing since sliced bread. like she was gracing me with her presence.

similarly, cancelling on me 2 hours before scheduled interaction. when i have already made plans revolving around the cancelled interaction.

cancelling on me for every slightest reason like she had a lot of homework and her dad's birthday was the following week.

saying "what" and interrupting me. but when she talked, she acted like every thought and emotion going through her brain must come out her trap within 10 seconds lest the sky fall down.

trying to hurry me up when i was walking. but then when we agreed to meet @ her house, she told me she overslept. and i was waiting outside 20 minutes. and i couldn't knock on the door b/c she lives behind someone. and she turned off the phone.

speaking of phone. when we went to a park and i went to an outhouse she phone called me. the phone did not get the call. or something. while she could've just stood there and talked to me. and i would've preferred it if she were to have come in. b/c phone reception is not great everywhere. and i do not want to drop the phone in the toilet. and besides i could hear her just fine on the other side.

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yeah anyways when i was in 6th grade, i wrongfully accused someone of stealing something. an entire stampede of them (at least 5) physically assaulted me at the bus stop. later, someone told me "you got my cousin suspended". but i did not know who the speaker was. and i did not know who the cousin was either. there were so many of them. it happened quickly. and i was scared. so i don't know any of their names and i would not recognize them either. it was like they were trying to teach me a lesson.

what was the lesson, do not wrongfully accuse someone? quite frankly, i get the feeling that the real lesson was to not do anything they did not like. b/c i find it hard to imagine that they could've come up with a different punishment for each crime.

anyways, after that, it took a long time to get over. to this day. now i am 34. still think about it. every. single. day.

and all they got was suspension? nobody cares about middle school suspension. not even college applications.

but whatever.

anyways.

@ the time, i thought what they did to me was unfair, b/c it was illegal. but slavery was legal at the time. and illegal does not mean immoral.

but now that i am more sophisticated, i realized that i indeed, deserved a punishment. however, i thought i deserved a smaller punishment than the one they gave me. but there were more of them than there were of me. if my opinion matters, then their opinion matters more. b/c there were more of them than there are of me.

anyways there is no absolute, natural, inherent, correct, objectively correct punishment/reward/response to every crime or good deed. and if there were, it wouldn't matter, b/c that ain't the response you get.

but plenty of precious lil "people" have accused me of things. and they were wrong. but i did not hire a stampede of junior high school reptiles to go invest a lot of calories in them. not only that but the precious lil "people" that wrongfully accused me did not get any punishment whatsoever. in some cases, they acted like they still had the moral high road. and they outnumbered me. and they made me ashamed and embarrassed and feel guilty and et cetera.

the allegedly stolen noodles were one example.

then 2 years ago, she saw me on the street. and the little windbag had the nerve to ask "are you still mad at me?".

"mad"?

"upset"? "pissed off"? "mad"?

how about "annoyed" and "angry"?

even her choice of words made it sound like i was morally unjustified.

okay, she didn't get it. i just rescued her from over 22 years of daily remorse.

she did not learn her lesson. not only did she not learn a lesson, but she still thought she was right and i was wrong.

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and she accused me of stealing her precious lil noodles in november 2011.

and i still have yet to forgive her.

not unless and until she changes her whole attitude.

but whatever.

even if she were to have done everything i wanted and nothing i did not want, then what?

she was not worth the energy it took to interact with her.

I am trusting and forgiving to a fault, but if someone breaks my trust is is intensely difficult for me to rebuild it. I always hold out walls to prevent getting hurt again. I also expect people to be truthful as a general rule and am awful at noticing manipulation which leads to problematic situations.

I can forgive (Christ does say to forgive 70x7), but there are limits for me. One is being abusive. Start the physical, mental, verbal sexual, and emotional abuse, and I'll cut off contact completely. Believe me, I'm not one to head to the Psych ER for little things, but I will crack when abused for being a nice guy over a long span of time.

As for theft, do so, and I'll never trust you again.

It has gotten to the point that I'd rather stay locked in my room and never venture out nor trust anybody. I've been betrayed too many times.

My rule is "Trust, but verify." They say people with AS are overly trusting. If so, then I'm distinctly the minority. I'm far more suspicious than most and, so far, my reasoning has been sound in that area.

As for forgiveness, there are definitely behaviors I make zero excuses for. The idea behind forgiveness is not making excuses for bad behavior. It is not letting people get your goat or having things take over your life, very difficult in some instances.

I'm not sure I understand. Alexithymia makes this very difficult.
Trust - trust what? I recently noted that I seem to believe others have basically hostile intentions. It never occurs to me that people may have warmth in their hearts, or are more inclined than not to regard me kindly.
Does this mean trust others not to damage you? I would generally approach this with an assessment of what they would gain/lose from it and respond from there - is it likely this person would attack me? What reasons would they have for doing so, and does that apply here? What are the other factors? For example I would generally trust others not to attack me say sitting in a restaurant eating a meal - because I assess they would be aware of the consequences if they did. There would be witnesses, possible security cameras, there are laws in place for assaults, they would face court and jailterm, etc. They may also receive damage from me defending myself. If they did not know me and I had done nothing proactive, the likelihood that they would randomly attack is low, so I trust they won't do so.
What is trust, really?
And forgiveness - again, I reassess. I must know the details involved. If someone had crossed me in some way - why? what was the situation? What were their intentions in doing so? Did they have a choice? Was it done knowingly, or unknowingly? Was it accidental, or deliberate? If I can understand, then I can assess, and then act accordingly.
Would that be forgiveness, I don't know. It is more an understanding of the nature of a person, and responding to them after that in a way that is appropriate for that nature.
Again, I'm not sure I understand, because I am assuming these are emotional concepts, correct? As in, trust may relay some kind of positive social regard? Warm pink fuzzy feelings? And forgiveness would rely on some kind of feelings being damaged by the other party, and the individual's capacity to then somehow get past those emotional damages?
I am not sure I can understand these emotional basis.

I can forgive, but I'm not very trusting. I know there's a lot of mean and manipulative people out there and I try to be careful, but I'm not usually holding a grudge against all of these people. Even if I like a person I sometimes try to stop myself from opening up to them in case they have an ulterior motive.

Honestly, I completely forgot I started this topic because my short term memory is terrible. So I saw the topic title and said "that looks interesting" and clicked on it then realized I was the one who started it.

W91T I agree. I can forgive because to me it's not worth the emotion I would have to pour into it to hold on to a grudge most of the time. But I don't trust easily so if that's broken things can never be the same. But that's not an emotional response for me, it's a logical one.

kraftiekortie I am also not vengeful. It makes no sense to me.

Sabreclaw Once I get close-ish to someone, or if they're among a group of people I know, I tend to trust them not to be terrible. I used to expect more of people than I should, just in that I expected them to be honest and decent.

shortfatbalduglyman Your ex-friend sounds like a narcissist, and they never make for good friends. My ex-friend also cancelled on me, a major event that we were preparing to go to. She told me about an hour before we were supposed to leave, and was very vague anyway about the details. She went to this event every year with a group of friends but I had never been. I wanted to go for the first time with her although I had plenty of opportunities to go otherwise. I later found out that she still went with her other friends, so I guess she just didn't want to go with me.

puzzledoll I also don't notice when I am being manipulated - someone else has to tell me or else I won't know.

Meistersinger For at least emotional abuse, it's hard for me to pick up on it unless a relationship has ended and I'm reflecting.

IstomimFan I agree about not making excuses for the behavior of others. When I forgive people it's because we're all imperfect, myself included, and people make mistakes. To me it doesn't make sense to hold on to that but that doesn't mean I can go on like nothing happened.

C2V Analytically, emotions don't make sense so the easiest way to explain this is by saying that it is almost entirely emotional. When I say trust I mean that you conclude you can confide in a person, and rely on them if you need something. I think my view of forgiveness is based more on logic than it is emotion but it's also why I only trust someone once. Example, if you burn yourself you're probably going to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen again. It doesn't mean you'll never use fire again, just that whatever steps lead to you being burnt aren't likely to repeat themselves if you can help it. (I use this example because I burn myself often because I don't gauge temperatures well.)

slw1990 Yes, decent people seem to be few and far between. I also am not as open with people because I kind of now assume they want something. And I'm not in a giving mood anymore.

So my next question to everyone is how has your view of forgiveness and trust affected you?

As I mentioned, my forgiveness is based on logic, and experiences have made me trust people less. My emotions are slowly being replaced by logic and I can't say I mind but my family won't be happy to discover it.

shortfatbalduglyman
Your ex-friend sounds like a narcissist, and they never make for good friends. My ex-friend also cancelled on me, a major event that we were preparing to go to. She told me about an hour before we were supposed to leave, and was very vague anyway about the details. She went to this event every year with a group of friends but I had never been. I wanted to go for the first time with her although I had plenty of opportunities to go otherwise. I later found out that she still went with her other friends, so I guess she just didn't want to go with me.
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narcissism is a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder. the Department of Rehab diagnosed me with 6 personality disorders. and there are only 10 personality disorders. Narcissistic Personality Disorder was not one of them.

the ex-friend told me she was bipolar. as in the mental illness. she did not disclose any other diagnoses. to me. but of course she could have had more diagnoses that she did not tell me about. there is no law that says she had to tell me. and she could have fulfilled the standards for diagnoses, that she had not yet received.

yes she could have been narcissistic. but what if she was, then what? plenty of precious lil "people" are narcissistic.

and she had plenty of friends too. or maybe the friends are narcissistic as well. and they are the same as eachother.

whatever.

while i ain't got no precious lil "friends". why, b/c Gender Identity Disorder, autism, clinical depression?

yeah that's exactly it. you trust someone to keep their plans with you. my ex "friend" had the nerve to tell me "i'll probably... definitely be there." and then you make plans that revolve around the "friend's" promises. and then the slightest thing allegedly happens and the friend cancels.

shortfatbalduglyman My ex-friend is also bipolar, and also has other friends. Maybe their friends are like them. Who knows.

Perhaps we'll find friends we can get along with. I don't think I'll be looking any time soon. The cons outweigh the cons for me.

Regarding forgiving: I'm, maybe, a little strange, in this regard----like, I can hold a grudge against someone, pretty much, indefinitely, for, seemingly, the smallest of things (like, maybe the thing for which I'm the biggest stickler, is manners----I mean, c'mon, how hard is "please" and "thankyou"); but, someone could shoot my mother to death, and I'd forgive them, fairly easily. I don't know what that means----make of it, what you will.....

As for trusting: I, pretty much, trust every single person I meet, INITIALLY----but, the first little thing that raises a red flag, in my mind, I will be, henceforth, subconsciously keeping score; and then, eventually, I won't have anything to do, with them.

shortfatbalduglyman My ex-friend is also bipolar, and also has other friends. Maybe their friends are like them. Who knows.

Perhaps we'll find friends we can get along with. I don't think I'll be looking any time soon. The cons outweigh the cons for me.
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at least 2 of my ex "friends" told me that they were bipolar. and i have not had many ex "friends". right now, ain't got no precious lil "friends". so, 2 out of not very many. likewise, other precious lil "people" might have been bipolar and did not tell me. which of course, is fine. ain't no law that says they have to. and there's nothing i would've done differently if they were to have told me. and other precious lil "people" might have been bipolar and not get a diagnosis.

yes, their precious lil "friends" were just like them. in that they said "huh" and "what" as if that was the moral equivalent of "excuse me". and when i make the mistake of flapping my fat trap, they halfway listen. whenever i say the slightest thing "wrong" (such as BS instead of BA), they correct me. they act all self-important. and by correcting me they change the subject. when they have the slightest emotion or thought, they act like it's the latest greatest scientific invention. they are totally addicted to their smartphones. they won't shut up. they are judgmental. constantly judging.

even what they call "observations" are judgments. for instance: "you walk around all slumped over", "you bit the sticker off the apple." they act like they seriously believe they are so absolutely, objectively important, that they have a moral entitlement to veto anything i do or say just b/c they do not like it.

they act like they are a sports commentator and i am a football game.

when they think i did something wrong, they act like they are the judge and the jury. then they act like i just invented the world's worst felony. and they act all self-righteous, like any punishment they inflict is morally justified. then they act like they have never done anything wrong before.

they cancel plans for lame little reasons. while they are not willing to wait for me.

they use condecending terminology for me. like "are you still mad at me?", instead of "are you still angry that i had the nerve to wrongfully accuse you of stealing my precious little noodles."

seriously those precious lil "people" act like they truly believe that they are perfect. and who is to say they are not perfect? they are cisgender and neurotypical. there are plenty of precious lil "people" just like them, and not many just like me. so they take that to mean that they are morally superior just b/c he/she outnumbers me.

those idiots make me wanna puke. seriously.

yes, it feels like making precious lil "friends" are just not worth the energy. they act like everything is their business. like they ask if i wanna get sex reassignment surgery. but when i ask how they got a fee reduction at the YMCA, they were like "why?". like that was so f*****g personal. (double standards.)

it's just their little entitled attitude that gets on my nerves royally.

they reject anything they do not like. and then they act like they are morally justified at doing so.

they do not allow disagreement.

anything i do they do not like they label as "disrespectful", "rude", or "mean."

then they let their precious lil dogs off leash around me. knowing i am afraid of dogs. then when the dogs chase me and bark they don't protect me from the dogs.

they care about their dogs more than they care about me.

This sort of thing confuses me because this is the kind of response I often get - emotional matters cannot be analysed, and since analysis is all I have to rely on, it's difficult. The counsellor once told me I'm lucky in a way, as apparently other people constantly do things that make no sense to themselves or anyone else, based on these emotional currents. And I don't.
Your example - I also differ. I assume nothing, so I automatically do not assume anyone will ever be there for me if I need something, and would consider it perfectly understandable if they weren't. I have had people who considered me a friend say things like "you could always call me, I'd be there for you."
Unless they say so, it doesn't occur to me.
As to forgiveness yeah, that reads similar to my reassessment of that person's nature. If they have proven that they will behave in a certain way, eg homophobic for example, then I will accordingly not bring up queer issues around that person again. But that's just cause and effect really, there isn't much feeling involved.