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0regonGuy
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07 Nov 2017, 9:16 pm

jonny23 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...


According the the FBI there where 665 justifiable homicides in 2010. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 387 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 278 people during the commission of a crime. That's just the number killed. There where many many more wounded or scared away.

Even mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens:
1997 Pearl High School
1998 Parker Middle School
2002 Appalachian School of Law
2007 New Life Church
2010 New York Mills AT&T Store
2010 Sullivan Central High School
2012 Freewill Baptist Church
2012 Clackamas Town Center Mall
2013 Luzerne County Bar
2014 Mystic Strip Club
2014 Austin, Texas Construction Site
2014 Cache Valley Hospital
2014 Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital
2015 Logan Square


BS detected. I'm not even going to go down the whole list. So I will just deal with the first case on the list. That was a student who shot and killed his girlfriend and another student, and wounded seven other students. He was attempting to leave the campus when another student blocked his car and the principle then detained him at gun point until police arrived. He was apprehended by an armed citizen, but no shooting was stopped. Not a very smart move either. The principle endangered student more with his actions. It would have been safer to let the kid leave, and have the police deal with him away from the campus. But don't let that stop you from continuing to grasp at straws, to try and justify failed policies.


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0regonGuy
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07 Nov 2017, 9:45 pm

Misslizard wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
B19 wrote:
School children in the USA seem to be taught what to do in the event of a killer-with-a-gun invading their school to kill them. The NZ children are taught to respect the power of the natural world, USA children to fear the evil acts of human beings. What impact does the latter have on a young, formative mind and soul? No wonder we don't understand each other very well at times, and seem to be on totally different wavelengths in discussions like this..

I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...

When I was in school we never worried about active shooters,but there was just as many guns out there.No drills for shooters then.
We had tornado drills,so yeah we knew about Mother Nature and her wrath.We get tornados every year.
As for people stopping home invasions with a gun,happens regularly on the local news.We have a tweaker problem.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... ading-home
They will crawl thru a doggie door to gain access.


Me too. Not only did we not have active shooter drills, but the school doors were all unlocked and unsecured. Anyone could enter the school at anytime, and nobody even worried about it.

Of course several things were different then. Ronald Reagan hadn't become president yet and shut down all the mental hospitals, and the guns were very different then. People had hunting rifles and shot guns. Handguns were pretty rare. and nobody had semi-automatic or automatic weapons, not even the police. Nobody could have killed 28 people in those days. It would have been physically impossible with the guns that were available at that time.


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jonny23
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08 Nov 2017, 6:56 am

0regonGuy wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...


According the the FBI there where 665 justifiable homicides in 2010. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 387 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 278 people during the commission of a crime. That's just the number killed. There where many many more wounded or scared away.

Even mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens:
1997 Pearl High School
1998 Parker Middle School
2002 Appalachian School of Law
2007 New Life Church
2010 New York Mills AT&T Store
2010 Sullivan Central High School
2012 Freewill Baptist Church
2012 Clackamas Town Center Mall
2013 Luzerne County Bar
2014 Mystic Strip Club
2014 Austin, Texas Construction Site
2014 Cache Valley Hospital
2014 Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital
2015 Logan Square


BS detected. I'm not even going to go down the whole list. So I will just deal with the first case on the list. That was a student who shot and killed his girlfriend and another student, and wounded seven other students. He was attempting to leave the campus when another student blocked his car and the principle then detained him at gun point until police arrived. He was apprehended by an armed citizen, but no shooting was stopped. Not a very smart move either. The principle endangered student more with his actions. It would have been safer to let the kid leave, and have the police deal with him away from the campus. But don't let that stop you from continuing to grasp at straws, to try and justify failed policies.


We have no way of knowing what Woodham's intentions where but the list is long and many of the others are much more clear. Saying "I'm not even going to go down the whole list." is not an argument, it's just sticking your fingers in your ears and say LALALA.



jonny23
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08 Nov 2017, 7:09 am

Lets look at logan square.

Armed citizen drives up and sees a man open fire on a crowd (Custodio).
Draws his handgun and fired six shots at Custodio, hitting him several times incapacitating him.
No other injuries were reported

So the diver did not injure anyone else. He was not shot by swat. In fact he did not even kill the shooter.



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08 Nov 2017, 10:23 am

0regonGuy wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
B19 wrote:
School children in the USA seem to be taught what to do in the event of a killer-with-a-gun invading their school to kill them. The NZ children are taught to respect the power of the natural world, USA children to fear the evil acts of human beings. What impact does the latter have on a young, formative mind and soul? No wonder we don't understand each other very well at times, and seem to be on totally different wavelengths in discussions like this..

I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...

When I was in school we never worried about active shooters,but there was just as many guns out there.No drills for shooters then.
We had tornado drills,so yeah we knew about Mother Nature and her wrath.We get tornados every year.
As for people stopping home invasions with a gun,happens regularly on the local news.We have a tweaker problem.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... ading-home
They will crawl thru a doggie door to gain access.


Me too. Not only did we not have active shooter drills, but the school doors were all unlocked and unsecured. Anyone could enter the school at anytime, and nobody even worried about it.

Of course several things were different then. Ronald Reagan hadn't become president yet and shut down all the mental hospitals, and the guns were very different then. People had hunting rifles and shot guns. Handguns were pretty rare. and nobody had semi-automatic or automatic weapons, not even the police. Nobody could have killed 28 people in those days. It would have been physically impossible with the guns that were available at that time.

There were Vietnam era M-16s around,fully automatic.And a few old Thompson's
Both my kids went to a small rural school,people could still just walk on in till the day they graduated.People drove right up to the school door with trucks with guns in the rack,kids brought rifles in their trucks during hunting season so they could hit the woods when school let out.
Something is different about society,no idea what,can't really blame video games or tv violence.People just seem angrier.


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08 Nov 2017, 11:10 am

Yea, there where plenty of semi auto guns and pistols when I was a kid. Sure no ARs or Glocks but M16s, AKs, SKSs, 1911, high powers and more. There where full autos then as there are now. The difference I see today is that they are all locked up in safes rather than leaning in a corner or hanging in a truck window where nobody seemed to bother them for some reason.



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10 Nov 2017, 6:25 pm

All the signs of psychopathy were there in plain sight:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/de ... 21c83e3f6f

And yet nobody seemed to question the right of this dangerous psychopath who was cruel to animals, infants, women, a vindictive stalker who resented any opposition to his rage-filled hateful actions and exhibited the hallmarks of a potential mass murderer - to own guns well suited to mass murder. He had expressed admiration of Dylan Roof's mass murder of church people in the past.

Admittedly hindsight is easier, but this piece of **** exhibited so many red flags for so long that he might as well have had a visible tattoo on his forehead: Have guns, feel entitled to kill bigtime.

The links between animal torturers and psychopathy are well established.
A January 2017 report from the Animal Legal Defense Fund found that some states still fail to mandate mental health evaluations or counseling for animal cruelty offenders or to require someone convicted of animal cruelty to give up their animals. Perhaps Texas is one of those states, I don't know. It's time to look at the underbelly of this mass killing, to all of information that was ignored, the whole of it, starting with the failure to register his conviction in the service, and all the other pieces of bystander observation that only now are being reported.

A peculiarity of the media coverage of this mass murderer compared to Paddock is that the media were all over themselves to link family background and relatives to Paddock for public consumption, compared to this mass murderer where there is a strange silence, the only mention I saw was that "he grew up in a million dollar house".

It's unusual for such a blanket of silence with mass killers and something has probably happened in the background to keep information suppressed, and the suppression must have had help from higher levels. It is certainly worth pondering.



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10 Nov 2017, 8:35 pm

B19 wrote:
It's unusual for such a blanket of silence with mass killers and something has probably happened in the background to keep information suppressed, and the suppression must have had help from higher levels. It is certainly worth pondering.


The guy himself for lack of a better word was "interesting" instead of the usual "he kept to himself but I never thought him capable"


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0regonGuy
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10 Nov 2017, 8:40 pm

Misslizard wrote:
0regonGuy wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
B19 wrote:
School children in the USA seem to be taught what to do in the event of a killer-with-a-gun invading their school to kill them. The NZ children are taught to respect the power of the natural world, USA children to fear the evil acts of human beings. What impact does the latter have on a young, formative mind and soul? No wonder we don't understand each other very well at times, and seem to be on totally different wavelengths in discussions like this..

I think the police in the US don't advocate killing an intruder. It's the NRA and their supporters who advocate shooting an intruder or attacker. Of course you could count the number of crimes successfully stopped (because a member of the public carried a gun) on one hand...

When I was in school we never worried about active shooters,but there was just as many guns out there.No drills for shooters then.
We had tornado drills,so yeah we knew about Mother Nature and her wrath.We get tornados every year.
As for people stopping home invasions with a gun,happens regularly on the local news.We have a tweaker problem.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... ading-home
They will crawl thru a doggie door to gain access.


Me too. Not only did we not have active shooter drills, but the school doors were all unlocked and unsecured. Anyone could enter the school at anytime, and nobody even worried about it.

Of course several things were different then. Ronald Reagan hadn't become president yet and shut down all the mental hospitals, and the guns were very different then. People had hunting rifles and shot guns. Handguns were pretty rare. and nobody had semi-automatic or automatic weapons, not even the police. Nobody could have killed 28 people in those days. It would have been physically impossible with the guns that were available at that time.

There were Vietnam era M-16s around,fully automatic.And a few old Thompson's
Both my kids went to a small rural school,people could still just walk on in till the day they graduated.People drove right up to the school door with trucks with guns in the rack,kids brought rifles in their trucks during hunting season so they could hit the woods when school let out.
Something is different about society,no idea what,can't really blame video games or tv violence.People just seem angrier.


Yeah, the military had them for fighting overseas, but not the police, and certainly no private citizens had them. The only weapons the police had in those days were 38 specials and shotguns. When Charles Whitman went on his shooting rampage, he did it with a Remington 700 6-mm bolt-action hunting rifle. The police didn't even have anything that could return fire, at that distance. If you told people in those days that some day American citizens would own automatic weapons, they would have looked at you like you were crazy.


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10 Nov 2017, 10:48 pm

/\The police didn't till the eighties.Then they became outgunned by gangs,so they acquired them.Civilians did own them then,till 1986.All fully automatic weapons purchased before then are legal.They were grandfathered in.A family friend had an M-16,I was a teenager then.We liked to target practice with it.


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0regonGuy
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11 Nov 2017, 7:04 am

Misslizard wrote:
/\The police didn't till the eighties.Then they became outgunned by gangs,so they acquired them.Civilians did own them then,till 1986.All fully automatic weapons purchased before then are legal.They were grandfathered in.A family friend had an M-16,I was a teenager then.We liked to target practice with it.


The National Firearms Act of 1934 made it impossible for most Americans to own them. That act was in effect until the late 1960s. People did not own those type of weapons in those days.


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11 Nov 2017, 11:10 am

0regonGuy wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\The police didn't till the eighties.Then they became outgunned by gangs,so they acquired them.Civilians did own them then,till 1986.All fully automatic weapons purchased before then are legal.They were grandfathered in.A family friend had an M-16,I was a teenager then.We liked to target practice with it.


The National Firearms Act of 1934 made it impossible for most Americans to own them. That act was in effect until the late 1960s. People did not own those type of weapons in those days.

It made restrictions but was not a complete ban.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... omatic-we/
Police started having access to them in 1981.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar ... encies_Act


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11 Nov 2017, 1:50 pm

1911s and browning high powers have been popular guns for 100 years. The high power holds 15 rounds of 9mm.

Full auto M16s where around before and after the 1986 regulations and semi auto m16 became popular eventually becoming the AR15.

You could also get full auto tommy guns, BAR rifles, AK47 and more before 1986. You can still get them now but they are very expensive because there is a limited supply.

Who knows why so many police carried 38 revolvers. They have always been known to be somewhat lacking in effectiveness. They have also had many other options available.



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12 Nov 2017, 12:20 am

jonny23 wrote:
1911s and browning high powers have been popular guns for 100 years. The high power holds 15 rounds of 9mm.

Full auto M16s where around before and after the 1986 regulations and semi auto m16 became popular eventually becoming the AR15.

You could also get full auto tommy guns, BAR rifles, AK47 and more before 1986. You can still get them now but they are very expensive because there is a limited supply.

Who knows why so many police carried 38 revolvers. They have always been known to be somewhat lacking in effectiveness. They have also had many other options available.


They carried 38s because they were more then adequate for the time. It was only after gun nuts started arming themselves with automatic/semi-automatic weapons that the police were forced to upgrade their own weapons. Which made things much more dangerous for al involved.


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12 Nov 2017, 6:08 am

38 was never adequate. That's been proven time and again for many years by the military and police.



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12 Nov 2017, 10:00 pm

jonny23 wrote:
38 was never adequate. That's been proven time and again for many years by the military and police.


It did the job for 90 years until civilians started upgrading to semiautomatics/automatics. If it wasn't for the proliferation of automatic weapons police would still be carrying 38 specials.


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