I wish there was a perfect society.

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adifferentname
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10 Dec 2017, 5:14 pm

TheAP wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Lo did the goalposts shift.

You defined raising awareness as "trying to change negative aspects of society (such as misogyny)".

No, they didn't. And that wasn't a definition, that's the purpose of raising awareness.

Yes they did, and yes it was - as was your reiteration in the above quote.

Quote:

Misogyny is a dislike of, contempt for or prejudice against women - i.e. it's exists within an individual's mind, no matter that it may or may not manifest as behaviour. And let's not get started on the obscene number of items, practices, ideas, etc that get filed under misogyny by feminists, without ever clarifying whether or not the alleged perpetrator, creator, etc actually dislikes women, and often coming into conflict with other feminists over whether or not something is actually misogynistic (topless page 3 models, for example).

The term misogyny is not always literal. It can also include objectifying, dehumanizing and stereotyping women.

I've already pointed out how dangerously nebulous the term is, but thanks for reinforcing my case.

Quote:

Rather than trying to fight a nebulous and open-ended "negative aspect", why not simply advocate everyone follow the Golden Rule?

And that would be less nebulous and open-ended?

Not to the individual, no. The parameters you set are the parameters by which others will judge you. That's part of its charm.

Quote:

Everyone knows they're supposed to follow the Golden Rule, but people still treat each other selfishly. It's better to point out specific ways people can help make a difference.

Specific way #1:

Before seeking to change the world, aspire to first understand it.

redrobin62
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10 Dec 2017, 7:49 pm

My Perfect Society:

1. Would have no crimes.
2. Would have affordable, subsidized apts or trailers.
3. All utilities would be paid for.
4. The city would be overrun with artists.
5. There'd be no drug users.
6. There'd be NO STRAY DOGS in the street.
7. People would be free to dress as they want without ridicule.
8. There'd be LGBTQ+ people of all stripes with NO prejudice against them.
9. There'd be many ethnic-type restaurants (Indian, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Italian, Mexican, German, etc).
10. Businesses and social service programs would be close enough together to walk to or use a scooter to get around.
11. There'd be bars and night clubs that play all kinds of music (country, jazz, rock, hip hop, etc).
12. There'd be art studios, recording studios, theatre spaces.
13. There'd be soup kitchens and food banks.
14. There'd be clothing banks.
15. There'd be access to medical and mental health.
16. The supermarket would be open 24hrs.
17. There'd be greenery everywhere - trees, shrubs, lakes, parks, hiking trails, forests, etc.
18. There would be NO HATE of any kind.
19. There'd be houses of worship of different religions.
20. There'd be complete separation of church and state.
21. It'd be a small town of about 2000 to 9000 people of different races and ethnicities.

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Last edited by redrobin62 on 10 Dec 2017, 8:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.

funeralxempire
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10 Dec 2017, 7:50 pm

Closet Genious wrote:

The men who are already good will get annoyed over time by being thrown into the same category.
And the men who truly hate women you are never going to change, especially not by pointing fingers at them.

In my honest opinion, if feminists want a realistic shot at decreasing misogony in society, the only way is by showing more compassion towards men in general. But I know feminists won't do that, because to them, being outraged and having someone to blame, is much more important than actually solving problems.

Trust me, name calling and finger pointing will only succed in creating more misogony.

So, in your mind, the way for feminists to achieve their goals is to entirely stop fighting for and advocating for a more egalitarian society, that any behaviours that might make misogynists pouty is damaging to their cause? Let me know when that has ever accomplished anything.

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funeralxempire
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10 Dec 2017, 7:52 pm

redrobin62 wrote:

The society you advocate for appears unlikely to ever happen, no drug users, there goes the majority of your entertainers and artists so you're unlikely to be overran by them.

TheAP
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10 Dec 2017, 8:27 pm

adifferentname wrote:

No, they didn't. And that wasn't a definition, that's the purpose of raising awareness.

No, stating the purpose of something is not defining it.

Quote:

I've already pointed out how dangerously nebulous the term is, but thanks for reinforcing my case.

How is it dangerous? Just because people can disagree on what constitutes it?

Quote:

Specific way #1:

Before seeking to change the world, aspire to first understand it.

So we have to fully understand the world before we can try to change it? Because it's impossible to fully understand the world.

Closet Genious
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10 Dec 2017, 8:49 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

In my country, we are already way way past the point of simply reaching an egalitarian society, so it is crystal clear, that that is not the goal at all.

funeralxempire
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10 Dec 2017, 9:15 pm

Closet Genious wrote:

In my country, we are already way way past the point of simply reaching an egalitarian society, so it is crystal clear, that that is not the goal at all.

You're welcome to imagine that egalitarianism exists, but that doesn't mean it does. :wink:

adifferentname
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10 Dec 2017, 9:20 pm

TheAP wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

No, they didn't. And that wasn't a definition, that's the purpose of raising awareness.

No, stating the purpose of something is not defining it.

Piffle.

Of the over 171k words in the OED, you'll find countless examples of precisely that. You were describing a purpose of a concept and therefore attempting to state the nature of it, which is the essence of definition.

Quote:

I've already pointed out how dangerously nebulous the term is, but thanks for reinforcing my case.

How is it dangerous? Just because people can disagree on what constitutes it?

You want to exercise power to change the world based on a nebulous premise. If you can't see why that's dangerous, I'm not sure I should continue taking your posts seriously.

Consider the following:

Does that alter your position at all?

Quote:

Specific way #1:

Before seeking to change the world, aspire to first understand it.

So we have to fully understand the world before we can try to change it? Because it's impossible to fully understand the world.

Before seeking to respond to my post, aspire to first understand it.

adifferentname
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10 Dec 2017, 9:22 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

In my country, we are already way way past the point of simply reaching an egalitarian society, so it is crystal clear, that that is not the goal at all.

You're welcome to imagine that egalitarianism exists, but that doesn't mean it does. :wink:

You're welcome to argue that feminists are in favour of egalitarianism, but that doesn't make it so. :roll:

Sweetleaf
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10 Dec 2017, 11:12 pm

foxxi wrote:

It would be full of atheists/non theistic religions, liberals, no feminists, everyone would give to society and society would give to them, there would be a flexible school system that teaches people of all ages whatever they want to learn rather than forcing people to learn things they don't like.

I like your idea quite a lot in some ways...however I have to recognizse the imortance of feminists and liberals. I mean here in the U.S feminism is not so hott.....but I think it has to do with a divide between real feminism and extremists who have taken over the cause. However I am always happy to hear about feminist movements in the middle east, who challenge ideas about having to be totally covered in public, only really expressing themselves inside when they can take some of the layers off. I mean while it is not a total end to discrimination I am glad women finally got the right to drive in Iran and that likely only occured due to women challenging it. But I was happy to see it seemed quite a few males where delighted with the idea of their wife to be able to drive. I think feminism is an important movement for women in oppressed countries...but I do think sometimes U.S feminists take it too far, like by suggesting men are essentially useless.

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magz
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11 Dec 2017, 5:25 am

Closet Genious wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

In my country, we are already way way past the point of simply reaching an egalitarian society, so it is crystal clear, that that is not the goal at all.

Really? I talked to some students from Sweden and they said everything depends on things like if you come from an educated or not educated family, good or bad neighborhood etc. Yes, money is often not a big issue but social status is still something in Sweden.
Or at least this they told me.
So what is the true?

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Closet Genious
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11 Dec 2017, 5:52 am

magz wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

In my country, we are already way way past the point of simply reaching an egalitarian society, so it is crystal clear, that that is not the goal at all.

I wonder what they base that statement on. Education and health care is free no matter who you are, so anyone determined enough(and smart enough), can go get a BA, Masters or even a P.hD.

I'm not ever gonna say that growing up in an unhealthy family enviroment is not a huge disadvantage, but I'm not really sure what can be done besides equal opportunity in education, regardless of social class.
The group that is having the most problems, by far, are boys growing up fatherless, they are very unlikely to go to university, regardless of socio-economic class.

When I say egalitarian, I mean egalitarian by law. There's lots of biological factors too(IQ for example), that means we won't ever have actual equal opportunity. But we can only do so much.

magz
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11 Dec 2017, 6:13 am

Closet Genious wrote:

When I say egalitarian, I mean egalitarian by law. There's lots of biological factors too(IQ for example), that means we won't ever have actual equal opportunity. But we can only do so much.

Let's see... This is women's employment in Germany:

from this article: https://www.thelocal.de/20150114/female ... dy-gdr-ddr

Same country, same law, different history.
Not that I say the Soviet-ruled Eastern Germany was a state I would like to live in. It was a horrible place in many aspects. Nevertheless, there are more things than simply the money and law to take into account when we talk about equality and egalitarianism.

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Closet Genious
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11 Dec 2017, 6:30 am

But those are the factors you can actually change. Like I said, the group that is at the bottom of society, are the young boys growing up without a father, what exactly would you do to change that?

As for the stats you posted from Germany: That's actually very interesting... I am not sure exactly what is causing that disparity.

foxxi
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23 Dec 2017, 8:00 am

TheAP wrote:

foxxi wrote:

That sounds good. Except that except for having only atheists, I'd like it so that everyone's religion was accepted. And there wouldn't be any feminists not because being a feminist is bad, but because there would be no inequality, so there wouldn't be any need for feminism.

GoSensGo wrote:

Meh, I think if you're still a feminist at this point you have to be the type that's just looking to be offended. Nobody wants to admit that things are good, they want to remain perpetual victims so they try to convince people of myths like the wage gap.

Just because things are better doesn't mean there aren't still problems.

Well, we would have pagans and satanist (Or other liberal religions) and ever sex, race, gender, sexuality would be treated equally.

foxxi
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23 Dec 2017, 8:08 am

redrobin62 wrote:

All homes would be free (We would have a population of 100 families, more or less) basic food like meat, bread, water/milk would be free, but stuff like pizza or cake would cost money, lgbt would be fine(Me being gay of course) non life-threatening drugs like alcohol, weed, and shrooms would be legal, no crack though.
I agree with you on pretty much everything else except for what I covered in my main post/other comments.

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