Bisexuality makes sense, Homosexuality doesn't.

Page 1 of 3 [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,872
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

20 Feb 2018, 5:53 pm

I mean from evolutionary speaking perspective; strict homosexuality, if it's something entirely genetic, doesn't really make sense, it's counter-productive for procreating - even if we assume that homosexual people in the past did have children, but why would it be as an evolutionary advantageous trait that survived over eons of time if they are less likely to have children than others?

Bisexuality on the other hand, well, it may make the tribe tad happier, less conflicted perhaps, and doesn't limit procreation - and may be beneficial for offspring in times before cultural strict monogamy (as having 3 caregivers instead of 2, more expanded family units....etc).

Homosexuality does exist in primate species as "homosexual behavior" which means that it's a behavior that occasionally happens by the same individuals who would engage heterosexual behavior, yet there's no record on individuals who are strictly homosexual as like "I don't like guys at all" - or - or strictly heterosexual for that matter.

100% gay or 100% straight is something only seen in humans, so basically primates like chimps are bisexual who engage in heterosexual behavior most of the time, and homosexual behavior occasionally.

So what makes strict homosexuality an advantageous genetic variant? Or do humans have bisexual tendency by default, like the other primates, then each leans to one direction or another?



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

20 Feb 2018, 8:58 pm

I think lesbianism, as I observe it, seems to make more "sense" than male homosexuality.

Women who kiss each other in front of me really seems to enjoy it.

They touch each other sensuously, too. It looks nice.

I just don't like to see two guys kissing. It gives me a shudder.

However, I admire how far "gay rights" has gone in the last 30 years or so.

I'm a purely straight man, by the way.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,873
Location: temperate zone

20 Feb 2018, 9:54 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I mean from evolutionary speaking perspective; strict homosexuality, if it's something entirely genetic, doesn't really make sense, it's counter-productive for procreating - even if we assume that homosexual people in the past did have children, but why would it be as an evolutionary advantageous trait that survived over eons of time if they are less likely to have children than others?

Bisexuality on the other hand, well, it may make the tribe tad happier, less conflicted perhaps, and doesn't limit procreation - and may be beneficial for offspring in times before cultural strict monogamy (as having 3 caregivers instead of 2, more expanded family units....etc).

Homosexuality does exist in primate species as "homosexual behavior" which means that it's a behavior that occasionally happens by the same individuals who would engage heterosexual behavior, yet there's no record on individuals who are strictly homosexual as like "I don't like guys at all" - or - or strictly heterosexual for that matter.

100% gay or 100% straight is something only seen in humans, so basically primates like chimps are bisexual who engage in heterosexual behavior most of the time, and homosexual behavior occasionally.

So what makes strict homosexuality an advantageous genetic variant? Or do humans have bisexual tendency by default, like the other primates, then each leans to one direction or another?


Who says that its an advantage? Who say it IS "selected for"? Its only five percent of the population.

Could be just a mutation, or an epigenetic thing that reappears every generation. Much like autism which also impedes reproduction.

Probably it does not get selected for so much as that it doesn't get weeded out by natural selection in humans any more because cultural norms in humans over ride pure animal instinct in reproduction.

In the last few thousand years gay men just follow social norms and get married to women and have kids despite being gay because of society. So the gene does get passed on. And I would wager the gay men get married and have more kids per capita than do heterosexual autistic men. Autism is a bigger handicap to reproduction than is lack of attraction to the opposite sex.



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,148
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

20 Feb 2018, 10:01 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
100% gay or 100% straight is something only seen in humans, so basically primates like chimps are bisexual who engage in heterosexual behavior most of the time, and homosexual behavior occasionally.

I have to wonder if that has more to do with our social ossification and just how difficult it is or how much devotion to a particular arena that it takes to be able to play gainfully, or to be in a good spot in that particular heirarchy.

In a way, based on that, there's some possibility that bisexuals would lose out if their activity isn't focused on knowing all the social rules of each tribe impeccably.


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


Chronos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,698

20 Feb 2018, 10:14 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I mean from evolutionary speaking perspective; strict homosexuality, if it's something entirely genetic, doesn't really make sense, it's counter-productive for procreating - even if we assume that homosexual people in the past did have children, but why would it be as an evolutionary advantageous trait that survived over eons of time if they are less likely to have children than others?

Bisexuality on the other hand, well, it may make the tribe tad happier, less conflicted perhaps, and doesn't limit procreation - and may be beneficial for offspring in times before cultural strict monogamy (as having 3 caregivers instead of 2, more expanded family units....etc).

Homosexuality does exist in primate species as "homosexual behavior" which means that it's a behavior that occasionally happens by the same individuals who would engage heterosexual behavior, yet there's no record on individuals who are strictly homosexual as like "I don't like guys at all" - or - or strictly heterosexual for that matter.

100% gay or 100% straight is something only seen in humans, so basically primates like chimps are bisexual who engage in heterosexual behavior most of the time, and homosexual behavior occasionally.

So what makes strict homosexuality an advantageous genetic variant? Or do humans have bisexual tendency by default, like the other primates, then each leans to one direction or another?


There is one advantage to homosexuality and that is, it limits population growth. If there are 7 billion people in the world and 10% were homosexual, that means 700,000,000 people are homosexual. That is the world population around the year 1700 and in that 300 years those 700,000,000, when not all of them reproduced, have resulted 7 billion people today.

So homosexuality has an advantage when overpopulation becomes a problem. It's evolutionary propagation, however, is a different issue. If we ask "what makes males attracted to females and females attracted to males?" hormones, rather than chromosomes, seem to play a large part in it, and hormones needs receptors to bind to and receptor expression is subject to epigenetics (gene switching).

Personally I think homosexuality arises as a manifestation of natural variation and can be triggered by a number things, whether that be genes, epigenetics, environment, or some combination there of.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

20 Feb 2018, 10:43 pm

I think the above is essentially true.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

21 Feb 2018, 4:33 am

Quote:

Male homosexuality doesn't make complete sense from an evolutionary point of view. It appears that the trait is heritable, but because homosexual men are much less likely to produce offspring than heterosexual men, shouldn't the genes for this trait have been extinguished long ago? What value could this sexual orientation have, that it has persisted for eons even without any discernible reproductive advantage?

One possible explanation is what evolutionary psychologists call the "kin selection hypothesis." What that means is that homosexuality may convey an indirect benefit by enhancing the survival prospects of close relatives. Specifically, the theory holds that homosexual men might enhance their own genetic prospects by being "helpers in the nest." By acting altruistically toward nieces and nephews, homosexual men would perpetuate the family genes, including some of their own.


https://medicalxpress.com/news/2010-02- ... e-sex.html



Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

21 Feb 2018, 4:45 am

Albinism or Dwarfism doesn't make sense the majority of these people would have died or not bred yet because of recessive genes these traits are still with us. Homosexuality is probably the result of multiple recessive genes.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,873
Location: temperate zone

21 Feb 2018, 4:51 am

Have heard of that "helper of kin theory" years ago. But it wasalways just speculation. That study in Samoa is the first time I have ever heard of anyone actually testing the theory in the real world. And that experiment seems to bear out the theory.



Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

21 Feb 2018, 4:53 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I mean from evolutionary speaking perspective; strict homosexuality, if it's something entirely genetic, doesn't really make sense, it's counter-productive for procreating - even if we assume that homosexual people in the past did have children, but why would it be as an evolutionary advantageous trait that survived over eons of time if they are less likely to have children than others?


It is possible it might simply be an aberration in the genome...
Not everything which happens in life makes sense...
Just look at Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton... :mrgreen:

It might be useful as is speculated in the "kin selection" hypothesis...
It might be useful in overpopulation management...
But might also simply be serendipitous and independent of a cohesive evolutionary grand plan scenario...

Meh...
Above my pay grade... :wink:



VIDEODROME
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,691

21 Feb 2018, 5:29 am

A person that has kids and also a homosexual sibling basically has backup parents who can step in if they're killed or die from disease. This is a huge advantage for a child having an aunt or uncle with no children of their own who can protect and raise them if their biological parents have died.



NorthWind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Jun 2016
Gender: Female
Posts: 577

21 Feb 2018, 5:57 am

Pepe wrote:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2010-02- ... e-sex.html

Quote:
To compensate for being childless, each fa'afafine would have to somehow support the survival of two additional nieces or nephews who would otherwise not have existed. "If kin selection is the sole mechanism by which genes for male same-sex sexual attraction are maintained over time,"

Your children have 50% of your genes and two children means your genes didn't become less in the next generation. Nieces or Nephews only have 25% of your genes. To compensate for being childless you need to ensure the survival/existence of more nieces or nephews than you'd otherwise have children.





Not sure if it's true - and too lazy to see if I can find the source again - but I've read somewhere that women with homosexual sons tend to on average have more children. If that's true genes that make men homosexual could be of advantage in women.



The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,872
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

21 Feb 2018, 7:09 am

VIDEODROME wrote:
A person that has kids and also a homosexual sibling basically has backup parents who can step in if they're killed or die from disease. This is a huge advantage for a child having an aunt or uncle with no children of their own who can protect and raise them if their biological parents have died.



This does make sense.



The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,872
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

21 Feb 2018, 7:41 am

naturalplastic wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I mean from evolutionary speaking perspective; strict homosexuality, if it's something entirely genetic, doesn't really make sense, it's counter-productive for procreating - even if we assume that homosexual people in the past did have children, but why would it be as an evolutionary advantageous trait that survived over eons of time if they are less likely to have children than others?

Bisexuality on the other hand, well, it may make the tribe tad happier, less conflicted perhaps, and doesn't limit procreation - and may be beneficial for offspring in times before cultural strict monogamy (as having 3 caregivers instead of 2, more expanded family units....etc).

Homosexuality does exist in primate species as "homosexual behavior" which means that it's a behavior that occasionally happens by the same individuals who would engage heterosexual behavior, yet there's no record on individuals who are strictly homosexual as like "I don't like guys at all" - or - or strictly heterosexual for that matter.

100% gay or 100% straight is something only seen in humans, so basically primates like chimps are bisexual who engage in heterosexual behavior most of the time, and homosexual behavior occasionally.

So what makes strict homosexuality an advantageous genetic variant? Or do humans have bisexual tendency by default, like the other primates, then each leans to one direction or another?


Who says that its an advantage? Who say it IS "selected for"? Its only five percent of the population.

Could be just a mutation, or an epigenetic thing that reappears every generation. Much like autism which also impedes reproduction.

Probably it does not get selected for so much as that it doesn't get weeded out by natural selection in humans any more because cultural norms in humans over ride pure animal instinct in reproduction.

In the last few thousand years gay men just follow social norms and get married to women and have kids despite being gay because of society. So the gene does get passed on. And I would wager the gay men get married and have more kids per capita than do heterosexual autistic men. Autism is a bigger handicap to reproduction than is lack of attraction to the opposite sex.


Autism, dwarfism....etc are extremely rare syndromes and mutations.

Homoesexuality, even at 5%, is quite way more common.



Jtie135
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Posts: 2

21 Feb 2018, 8:09 am

At one in 68 people ( in America at least) autism is also fairly common



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,561

21 Feb 2018, 10:36 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7_08n0

Altruism and Social Cooperation in General is what Propagates
the continuing success of the species as science clearly shows.
And of course to assist that as far as basic survive and even thrive;
direct reproduction, otherwise known as the work of the night, in some 'primitive'
tribes, is not the only factor by far that counts as far as success of any Social Animal
Group; particularly, Homo Sapiens Sapiens whose social cooperation is so successful
that the byproducts of that 'Love' are ironically what's led to the extinction of many other
species of life as the Environment continues to rumble like a backed-up septic tank that
is ready to get out of balance and potentially overflow in many more ways of discord. Anyway, Human
now is rather complicated when it comes to motivation for having intercourse. Remember, as even the
Big Screen shows, there are Fifty Shades of Grey and many more. And although, Elton John has never
actually propagated directly; it's safe to say that his Artistic Efforts have inspired many more a one night
stand at Dance Halls and much more Hetero-sexual sex than that. But of course, that is just one 'small'
anecdotal note. There are Millions and Million more; obviously, for anyone who has actually lived around
and interacted with Homosexual folks at work and school and in the family too. My experience, with the
folks inclined toward this 'other sexual orientation' is they are the most altruistic Humans of all. Something
about 'not doing the reproductive competition thingy'; seems to make folks overall nicer in many ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Khn_z9FPmU

But don't take my word for it and it is nice to see that most folks already agree in this thread at the
'Wrong Planet' that helping 'the kin'; and yes, of course, for helping the entire human crowd there are
folks like Tesla and so many more through the science fields of history who have had more time
to apply focus to their contributions for the overall survival of the species without the additional
and often sleepless nights of tasks associated with raising children. It's like math; there are
only so many days and months in any human life to achieve the greatest potentials to help
the rest of the tribe.

If one knows any 'homophobes', including 'church folks'; i suggest, one send them a link to
the Ted Talk provided above that I am attaching from Medical Doctor, James O'Keefe, for those
who are more susceptible to believing authorities on Evolutionary Biology Topics and the such as that.

And if 'they' are just 'human', perhaps they
will listen to a Pop Singer who was inspired by
the kindness of his Gay Uncle who finally got the
legal right to marry his significant other. I'll add that one up top.
If a person is really 'Human', they will get it; if not that just goes to
show why Nature is 'kind' enough to include Homosexual folks in the
mix for true they are often
the
most
'Human'
of all as that applies
to acts of Altruism
other
wise
known and better
yet felt and sensed as the Art of Love.

Science provides the tools for Creature Comfort.
Love is the Art that Lives within that makes life worth living.
For me at least, it's Worthy of Thanks and Praise and Great Glory/Worship.
In fact, I call Love Literally God. One can't see it at essence of how it works,
Neuro-Hormonally and Neuro-Chemically, without some Science Tools, still;
but one can see, feel, and sense it, when it is real; if one is fully Human as 'normally' evolved;
Like most all Homosexuals, I have met in the worst possible environment for them to possibly
thrive in 'Trump County' USA, assessed by Sociologists as the worst place for folks who are different
to thrive. Factors sited are what was once the most Churches on record per square mile and the Military
influence of several installations in the area for it is true to kill humans one musts dampen the Natural
Humane aversion to doing this to another human; namely: empathy, sympathy and compassion; Traits
that any outcast
may learn the best
if they don't live and die
by 'the rifle' and the such as that
in Vengeance of Fear and Hate versus Victory of Hope
And Fearless Unconditional Living Flesh and Blood Love.

Historically speaking, a Science of Love and Lust and
stuff like that; and alternate Sexual Orientations and
Gender propensities has been a tough road for the traditional
Scientific Method to explore. True though, strides are being made
that may eventually make a Real Original Greek Definition of Apocalypse
that means lifting the veils of ignorance come truer. It's worth noting though
that there are still modern folks who believe the Earth is flat. But True in Light the more folks
who are touched by the Truths of Love, the better for what is at hand by Leadership now lost in Dark,
other
wise felt and
sensed as fear and hate
by those who have a heart; additionally
spirit and soul and all those metaphors
for what make altruistic human beings real.

As far as other case studies; 'that' Ellen Lady on TV
is probably one of the closest open examples of a Living
Flesh and Blood 'Angel' Thriving on Earth; if one can appreciate a living propensity like that.

There is a Dude who is actually famous in the Bar i Dance at that the Young Open minded Loving
College Folks name 'Mr. Fabulous' who is a Middle Age Cross Dancer Brave enough to do that in
the open in Trump Town USA where i live. That dude is actually one of the best examples
of an actual Christian by the Core Beatitude Teachings by the folks who worked together
across the Centuries to Bring that section of that Historical collection of Poetry and prose
to life. Jesus F in Christ, he is a living example of just that and me and my wife got a
selfie with him last night at the Target Store as many other folks love to do with him too;
who have a soul. I have no idea what his sexual orientation is but he is one of the most beautiful
hearts and spirits and souls i have ever met on this planet earth. And that F iN Makes the most feel to me.
In fact, today is my wife and me's 28th Anniversary; as i am gonna make that selfie my profile pic and if someone
de-friends me over that on Face Book ; just another badge of honor for me for being a real human being who's not afraid of Love.

Some cannot and do not. In fact, some folks are even born without the ability to do that.
True, some folks are born with little empathy to none at all; or bred that way too in neglect and abuse.
That doesn't make 'sense' to me, now. But in fact, it's real too. Some of these folks make great CEO's and Surgeons
and "Soldiers of Fortune", too. True, in Tribal Conflicts, there is a place for them too; and in the Emergency
Room and 'Building 666' on 'Fortune' Street too, political pun intended as such too; hehe. Bottom two lines:
Diversity works. If one wants same, join a 'robot club'; that really doesn't make sense; been there
and done it too; in an age of Another Ground Hog Day (Aghogday); specifically as just me.


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick